5 ms·

References to Israel are not unnecessary details when protestors call for the elimination of the only existing Jewish state. Anti-Zionism isn't criticism of Isr

by uhhhd 1y ago

References to Israel are not unnecessary details when protestors call for the elimination of the only existing Jewish state. Anti-Zionism isn't criticism of Israel. Its eliminationist rhetoric and plainly bigoted.

Braxton1980 1y ago
>Anti-Zionism isn't criticism of Israel "opposition to the establishment or support of the state of Israel" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Zionism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Zionism >Its eliminationist rhetoric and plainly bigoted. There are some who think Israel shouldn't exist others who think their government is wrong. If a person thinks all Israelis should be murdered then that's wrong. This is not the whole representation of Anti-Zionism but you are trying to make it You can only be bigoted against a person or group of people, not a country or government.
- bernb 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mandmandam 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - AStonesThrow 1y ago
      The trouble is that Israel-Palestine is a proxy war with spiritual implications. Israel is composed of people who just went through a legitimate holocaust and genocide themselves. Therefore it seems logical to most people that they'd be ready and willing to exact vengeance in the measure it was dished out to them. Furthermore, their Tanakh (our Old Testament) details the battles between the Children of Israel and their neighbors, which were murderous, atrocious, and genocidal on both sides. Why should modern warfare be any different? Conversely, Palestine is composed of an amalgam of pan-Arabic people and, correct me if I'm wrong, no particularly deep roots in terms of common ethnic descent, or claim to such land or territory, since it was British until recently. Therefore, the Palestinians are a stand-in for all the Arab world, and by proxy, we're fighting all those Arab terrorists by targeting Palestine, and vice versa. Now the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews. They really make no bones about their desire to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth. By proxy they did a pretty good job during WWII -- the Third Reich, being the enemy of their enemy, was greatly pleasing to the Arab world. So the Middle East has two little Davids fighting each other on behalf of their respective Goliaths. Israel's campaign has finally ramped up to the point where the rest of the world cries injustice and genocide and enough. But Israel has vowed "never again [to us]" while living under very real and existential threat that the entire Arab world would very much do it again to them, if they had half the chance. So if the West puts the brakes on Israel, then we're letting the other Goliath's David win, and nobody around here wants that.
      - mandmandam 1y ago
        [flagged]
        firesteelrain 1y ago
        “ Palestinians didn't do the holocaust. On the contrary, they took Jewish people in - on condition that no one would try and form an ethno-state” Before World War II, the land was British Mandate Palestine, which was previously part of the Ottoman Empire. It was a land with a mixed population and growing nationalist movements among both Jews and Arabs. Balfour Declaration 1917 “His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object..." Under League of Nations, there was no explicit agreement that Jewish people could only come if they never formed a state. 1920s-30s more immigration occurred and clearly Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state. In 1939, before Holocaust, Britain severely limited Jewish immigration stating in a White Paper, “Palestine would not become a Jewish state”. It limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 over 5 years. Fast forward to 1947 post WW2, Britain became increasingly concerned about tensions between Arabs and Jews. There became a strong demand for a Jewish state amongst Zionists it was referred to the United Nations in 1947. UN partition plan divided Palestine into three parts. Jews accepted even though it had compromises and Palestinians rejected. War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. After the Arab-Israeli War, Jordan occupied the West Bank, Egypt took Gaza, Israel expanded its borders. No Palestinian state was created. Palestine identity started getting created in the 20th century. It had been known as Palestine for millennia and ruled by various empires over hundreds of years. “ Palestinians – as well as other Levantine people – are primarily descended from ancient Levantines who inhabited what is today Israel and Palestine, at least 3700 years ago” It’s complicated and there is a lot of nuance. Many cultural groups trace their origins there including Jews who consider themselves descendants of ancient Israelites.
        dunekid 1y ago
        >War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. Please do mention the Dalet Plan, the massacres of the Palestinians by Zionists, and how the war broke out. Also killing UN mediators by Zionists would something to complete the history lesson, rather than Palestinians rejected. Wow, who would have thought people would reject taking their land and giving it to somebody else! And also mention the rejection by Zionists of the count Bernadotte's plan. So the Zionists just killed the one who made the plan, so whoever came after him just gave more land to Zionists.
    - bernb 1y ago
      I don't think this answers my questions. Anti-Zionism is about the idea that there should be no state of Israel. How should this be achieved without war and a genocide-like event? What are people that are in favor of Anti-Zionism specifically hoping for?
      - ethbr1 1y ago
        Israel gives the Palestinians a contiguous state with sea access is exchange for a mutual recognition of borders. The root problem that anti-Zionists have in practice (rather than the "no state of Israel" loonies) is Palestinians having a viable state (economically and territorially). Both of those are things Israel (with the help of Arab funding) could fix tomorrow, if its current government weren't kowtowing to its ultra-right / illegal settler minority for political reasons.
        bernb 1y ago
        I can totally see how the settlements and politics of Israel in the westbank would prevent a viable Palestinian state. I know less about Gaza (haven't been there to begin with), but my impression is that Gaza had much more freedom within it's borders. It's unfortunate that the people there voted for a terror organization back then that as their very first act murdered the opposition and has no interest at all to work for the benefit of the Palestinian people. Recognition of borders by Hamas will obviously never happen, so as long as they rule in Gaza or might potentially rule in Gaza or the westbank in the future it would be way too much risk for Israel to expose their borders.
        computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
        spwa4 1y ago
        I think everyone forgets just how much money Palestinians receive, effectively because of the war with Israel (or they wouldn't receive anywhere near this amount without that war). This guarantees the war continues. None of the states in the middle east around Israel are anywhere close to Palestine, economically. What Palestinians are receiving amounts to $1000/person (or $13000/person/yr) for nothing. That doesn't include payments from the middle eastern countries like Qatar, which reportedly are enough to make all Palestinian government leaders billionaires, as well as run both hamas and the PA. If Palestinians needed to support their own economy, well, let's look at the neighboring countries: Egypt: 3,457.46 GDP/capita/yr Jordan: 4,455.51 GDP/capita/yr Lebanon: 3,654.36 GDP/capita/yr (This is NOT income, it's GDP, let's generously say average income would be half that) So napkin math: peace with Israel would cost Palestinians 7/8th or 87.5% of the average income of a Palestinian. Well, let's say they wouldn't lose all aid. Let's say it would cost them 75% of their income. It would be a worse economic disaster for them than WW2 was in Europe. Frankly it's so much of a loss that I do actually kind of believe Israel's government also wants the war: the business they get from Palestinians is still between 15 and 20% of Israel's GDP and would entirely disappear if there was peace. But the incentive for war is far stronger for Palestinians. Currently, despite everything, Palestine is ahead of Eastern Europe in economic development (by which I mean "go into a random apartment, what would you find?"). You would destroy that. Frankly, I find it hard to believe Palestinians would even match Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan in terms of economy any time soon. I think if you asked Palestinians if they wanted war, victims and all, in trade for keeping what they have (as opposed to losing 75%), they would want war. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's not exactly an exception. If, say, the French had the option to 4x their average income in trade for war, they'd start a war. No doubt in my mind about that.
  - no_moresecrets 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - bernb 1y ago
      That doesn't really answer the questions. In addition: there are 1-2 million Palestinians already living in Israel as normal citizen.

by uhhhd 1y ago

Braxton1980 1y ago

>Anti-Zionism isn't criticism of Israel "opposition to the establishment or support of the state of Israel" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Zionism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Zionism >Its eliminationist rhetoric and plainly bigoted. There are some who think Israel shouldn't exist others who think their government is wrong. If a person thinks all Israelis should be murdered then that's wrong. This is not the whole representation of Anti-Zionism but you are trying to make it You can only be bigoted against a person or group of people, not a country or government.

bernb 1y ago
[flagged]
- mandmandam 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - AStonesThrow 1y ago
    The trouble is that Israel-Palestine is a proxy war with spiritual implications. Israel is composed of people who just went through a legitimate holocaust and genocide themselves. Therefore it seems logical to most people that they'd be ready and willing to exact vengeance in the measure it was dished out to them. Furthermore, their Tanakh (our Old Testament) details the battles between the Children of Israel and their neighbors, which were murderous, atrocious, and genocidal on both sides. Why should modern warfare be any different? Conversely, Palestine is composed of an amalgam of pan-Arabic people and, correct me if I'm wrong, no particularly deep roots in terms of common ethnic descent, or claim to such land or territory, since it was British until recently. Therefore, the Palestinians are a stand-in for all the Arab world, and by proxy, we're fighting all those Arab terrorists by targeting Palestine, and vice versa. Now the Arab world is nakedly genocidal against the Jews. They really make no bones about their desire to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth. By proxy they did a pretty good job during WWII -- the Third Reich, being the enemy of their enemy, was greatly pleasing to the Arab world. So the Middle East has two little Davids fighting each other on behalf of their respective Goliaths. Israel's campaign has finally ramped up to the point where the rest of the world cries injustice and genocide and enough. But Israel has vowed "never again [to us]" while living under very real and existential threat that the entire Arab world would very much do it again to them, if they had half the chance. So if the West puts the brakes on Israel, then we're letting the other Goliath's David win, and nobody around here wants that.
    - mandmandam 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - firesteelrain 1y ago
        “ Palestinians didn't do the holocaust. On the contrary, they took Jewish people in - on condition that no one would try and form an ethno-state” Before World War II, the land was British Mandate Palestine, which was previously part of the Ottoman Empire. It was a land with a mixed population and growing nationalist movements among both Jews and Arabs. Balfour Declaration 1917 “His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object..." Under League of Nations, there was no explicit agreement that Jewish people could only come if they never formed a state. 1920s-30s more immigration occurred and clearly Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state. In 1939, before Holocaust, Britain severely limited Jewish immigration stating in a White Paper, “Palestine would not become a Jewish state”. It limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 over 5 years. Fast forward to 1947 post WW2, Britain became increasingly concerned about tensions between Arabs and Jews. There became a strong demand for a Jewish state amongst Zionists it was referred to the United Nations in 1947. UN partition plan divided Palestine into three parts. Jews accepted even though it had compromises and Palestinians rejected. War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. After the Arab-Israeli War, Jordan occupied the West Bank, Egypt took Gaza, Israel expanded its borders. No Palestinian state was created. Palestine identity started getting created in the 20th century. It had been known as Palestine for millennia and ruled by various empires over hundreds of years. “ Palestinians – as well as other Levantine people – are primarily descended from ancient Levantines who inhabited what is today Israel and Palestine, at least 3700 years ago” It’s complicated and there is a lot of nuance. Many cultural groups trace their origins there including Jews who consider themselves descendants of ancient Israelites.
        dunekid 1y ago
        >War broke out and in 1948, several Arab states attacked. Please do mention the Dalet Plan, the massacres of the Palestinians by Zionists, and how the war broke out. Also killing UN mediators by Zionists would something to complete the history lesson, rather than Palestinians rejected. Wow, who would have thought people would reject taking their land and giving it to somebody else! And also mention the rejection by Zionists of the count Bernadotte's plan. So the Zionists just killed the one who made the plan, so whoever came after him just gave more land to Zionists.
  - bernb 1y ago
    I don't think this answers my questions. Anti-Zionism is about the idea that there should be no state of Israel. How should this be achieved without war and a genocide-like event? What are people that are in favor of Anti-Zionism specifically hoping for?
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      Israel gives the Palestinians a contiguous state with sea access is exchange for a mutual recognition of borders. The root problem that anti-Zionists have in practice (rather than the "no state of Israel" loonies) is Palestinians having a viable state (economically and territorially). Both of those are things Israel (with the help of Arab funding) could fix tomorrow, if its current government weren't kowtowing to its ultra-right / illegal settler minority for political reasons.
      - bernb 1y ago
        I can totally see how the settlements and politics of Israel in the westbank would prevent a viable Palestinian state. I know less about Gaza (haven't been there to begin with), but my impression is that Gaza had much more freedom within it's borders. It's unfortunate that the people there voted for a terror organization back then that as their very first act murdered the opposition and has no interest at all to work for the benefit of the Palestinian people. Recognition of borders by Hamas will obviously never happen, so as long as they rule in Gaza or might potentially rule in Gaza or the westbank in the future it would be way too much risk for Israel to expose their borders.
        computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
        spwa4 1y ago
        I think everyone forgets just how much money Palestinians receive, effectively because of the war with Israel (or they wouldn't receive anywhere near this amount without that war). This guarantees the war continues. None of the states in the middle east around Israel are anywhere close to Palestine, economically. What Palestinians are receiving amounts to $1000/person (or $13000/person/yr) for nothing. That doesn't include payments from the middle eastern countries like Qatar, which reportedly are enough to make all Palestinian government leaders billionaires, as well as run both hamas and the PA. If Palestinians needed to support their own economy, well, let's look at the neighboring countries: Egypt: 3,457.46 GDP/capita/yr Jordan: 4,455.51 GDP/capita/yr Lebanon: 3,654.36 GDP/capita/yr (This is NOT income, it's GDP, let's generously say average income would be half that) So napkin math: peace with Israel would cost Palestinians 7/8th or 87.5% of the average income of a Palestinian. Well, let's say they wouldn't lose all aid. Let's say it would cost them 75% of their income. It would be a worse economic disaster for them than WW2 was in Europe. Frankly it's so much of a loss that I do actually kind of believe Israel's government also wants the war: the business they get from Palestinians is still between 15 and 20% of Israel's GDP and would entirely disappear if there was peace. But the incentive for war is far stronger for Palestinians. Currently, despite everything, Palestine is ahead of Eastern Europe in economic development (by which I mean "go into a random apartment, what would you find?"). You would destroy that. Frankly, I find it hard to believe Palestinians would even match Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan in terms of economy any time soon. I think if you asked Palestinians if they wanted war, victims and all, in trade for keeping what they have (as opposed to losing 75%), they would want war. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's not exactly an exception. If, say, the French had the option to 4x their average income in trade for war, they'd start a war. No doubt in my mind about that.
- no_moresecrets 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - bernb 1y ago
    That doesn't really answer the questions. In addition: there are 1-2 million Palestinians already living in Israel as normal citizen.