53 ms·

India To Biometrically Identify All Of Its 1.2 Billion Citizens

84 points by millerski150 14y ago

joelrunyon 14y ago
I realize this may be a very american perspective, but I can't imagine any tradeoff that would make this "worth it" for me. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. - Benjamin Franklin.
- Jabbles 14y ago
  They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin Without the word "essential", this quote sounds very absolute and idealistic, which was of course not the intention.
  - sgt 14y ago
    Exactly the quote that came to my mind too. Sometimes you need to be somewhat absolute and idealistic. I feel sorry for India.
  - tzs 14y ago
    The word "temporary" is also quite important in that quote, and often omitted.
  - AndyIngram 14y ago
    Where are they giving up liberty. You have to look at the problems from an India perspective not a first world one. Personal identification is a solved problem here but in India lack of trust and lack of access prevents many people from gaining liberty. This system will allow a greater number of people to access government programs, education, and financial tools like bank accounts. That being said there needs to be some safe guards in place to prevent the police state scenarios that many here seem to be worried about.
    - intended 14y ago
      I'm Indian, I've looked at it from an Indian perspective and plain logic tells me this is insane. Heck leave alone our country men and their talent at finding loopholes or the corruption of our system. When I know first hand that the debate internally amongst the world bank and nandan nilekani went from trying to tackle the privacy issues to "my role is to give every Indian a number" (second hand quote) my hair stands on end. Not to mention that the system already creates duplicates and overlaps, which then compound which each subsequent generation. Or the fact that we already have bad data from outsourcers who just jammed info into the system, or the fact that the laptops were stolen. I think we lost data recently too. This is just a bad idea.
    - zmmmmm 14y ago
      Biometric security has always been a disaster which is why real projects using it almost never end up being realized. The article portrays it as if the reason India is the first to do this is because they are somehow uniquely able to take advantage of technology. The reality is that the reason they are the first is that everybody realized how flawed it is. In terms of liberty - a biometric id is, by definition, an "involuntary" identity. It's something you're unable to change or refuse to yield, even if you choose to. A person with a non-biometric identity can freely destroy all forms of that identity and then they cannot be identified any more by it. They have the freedom to produce it when they wish to be identified, and to choose not to when they wish to remain anonymous. A biometric identity is a non "opt out" identity. It can never be changed or altered, and can be forcibly read by anybody with physical control over you. Hence there is a great loss of liberty in a biometric identity, and when you really think it through, almost no advantages that can't be obtained from a non-biometric identity.
- scdoshi 14y ago
  I can understand the liberty v/s security implications, but I don't understand when people in the US feel they are better off in terms of liberty. This is essentially SSN implemented in the 21st century. And you can't get a job, buy/rent a house, or get a bank account without an SSN The fact that you can be anonymous in the U.S. and still live a life inside of regular society is a complete myth. And I think most people accept the fact that the SSN is in fact necessary. India does not have any such system, instead of the SSN, they have ten different numbers attached to a person. All this does is make the ID part of it uniform. The biometric part is not the focus here, the ID part is, which pretty much every developed country already has. The biometric part is just a means to get the ID part done better. Just to reiterate, I understand the liberty v/s security implications, but americans have already given theirs up for security, so maybe that's just the price to pay of being a developed nation.
  - Negitivefrags 14y ago
    I've actually noticed that citizens of the US need to provide their SSN in a huge number of situations that I would never need to provide any kind of government identification. The closest thing we have to an ID that every citizen has is an IRD number for the purposes of tax. You would give that to your bank and your employer so that they can pay tax on your behalf, but even that is optional. If you don't provide it then they will assume that you pay tax at the highest rate. Compare to when I was staying a friends house in the US and heard him give his SSN to the phone company when he was troubleshooting his internet. I find it baffling that you would need a government issued ID number just to form a relationship with a phone company.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - graue 14y ago
      It would be useful when making this sort of comment if you mentioned where you live.
  - joelrunyon 14y ago
    But the biometric part means that scanners/computers/systems can ID you with your consent and/or knowledge. At least with a SSN, you have to consent and give them it.
Craiggybear 14y ago
Apart from never being able to make this work, what would be a better way of lifting people out of poverty and making their lives better would be the government to abolish the caste system. Indian society is a mess and this won't change a damn thing. Apart from making the lives of the desperately poor even more bureaucracy-ridden and miserable.
patrickgzill 14y ago
This will allow massive credit expansion in India, as being trackable means lending companies can more easily identify people. Same thing has happened in the Philippines over the last 10 years, easy credit has exploded.
- mindslight 14y ago
  And this is a good development? Institutionalized credit is merely a market-based mechanism for the gradual erosion of freedom. It brings economic gain in the short term, as people are able to step outside the prejudices restricting their informal local credit. However for the long term, just take a look at the debt treadmill most everyone in the US is on. (idk why you're being downvoted; you're correct)
  - nacker 14y ago
    Exactly. No doubt the scam that is Grameen Bank will be licking their chops. Microcredit or Macrowelfare: The Myth of Grameen https://mises.org/daily/2375 https://mises.org/daily/2375
  - sgt 14y ago
    I'm not sure whether OP thinks this is a good thing or not, but I certainly hope not. Being universally trackable by government is one of the most evil things I can think of right now. Once this starts, we know what's coming in a few years - an RFID in every person (or similar, possibly more advanced technology). Say goodbye to individual freedom.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - mindslight 14y ago
      I'd thought about elaborating to head off this comment. This is true when credit first arrives on the scene. People looking for loans are thinking in terms of paying the money back, and the benefit they'll have from temporary use of the money. Over time, this extra money drives prices up (especially with collateralized loans), and causes credit to be increasingly necessary to even afford the items in question. People then think in terms of economic rent, with little intention of paying back the principle. (See: US housing market). It's still true that in every instance, one ultimately chooses to borrow the money. It's just that it becomes impossible to lead a 'normal life' without doing so.
anuraj 14y ago
Given India's track record on surveillance, this can become a security nightmare for its populace. The chances of this data being misused by various detrimental interests are very real and is already happening. India need to be much more open and populace needs to be more educated before biometric identification can achieve positive outcome.
avjinder 14y ago
I live in India and I had my fingerprints and my irises scanned almost 6 months ago. This is mostly being done to curb impersonation at polling booths during elections and to stop credit card/pension/cellular connections etc. fraud. This is a big step for India and I hope they succeed.
jackfoxy 14y ago
Didn't even make it through the fist paragraph before I hit this gem A small group of entrepreneurs within the government... IMO says a lot about the biases of the reporter and probably the site as well. Franklin may be frequently misquoted (as pointed out by another commenter here), but the liberty/security trade-off is real. Personally I tend to err on the side of liberty idealism. It's clear there are plenty of interests pulling for the other side.
- smokeyj 14y ago
  So many gems in this one. > One area in desperate need of disruption is the delivery of government services. Seeing disruptive describe a bureaucratic process is tickling. > Over time, systematic corruption and mismanagement have bred bad data, false information and outright fraud ... Poor laborers and migrant workers, in particular, are forced to travel far from their homes to collect their wages and benefits, having to dole out bribes to predatory middlemen along the way. So now we're empowering a corrupt monopoly with biometric intelligence on every citizen in the country. What could possibly go wrong..
  - ftuiz 14y ago
    take a look at this one,i can already see where they are going.they will en-roll everyone or force everyone to en-roll so that big corporates can spy on us/profile us .. man this is sad http://bangalore.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/3600-bengaluru-uid-aadhaar-operators-violating-privacy http://bangalore.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/3600-bengal... (note :i live in India)
    - smokeyj 14y ago
      I think most of the industrialized world will go through this inevitably, but it's important to remember that liberty is a long term strategy that requires education and diligence. In a way, India is about to prove why biometric data on every citizen is a bad idea. We need to see how such data can be abused to fully understand how dangerous such data is in the wrong hands. Sure tptacek might come on down and tell us how such regulation should be thanked, but we're about to witness a controlled experiment that proves the contrary. My money is on a more controlled extortion apparatus ;)
shell0x 14y ago
What are the advantages of using this system over a normal passport? It seems like just another country trying to get a good reputation as a surveillance state :(
binarymax 14y ago
A fascinating article was in the New Yorker about this here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_parker http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_... (sorry it's behind a paywall). To the naysayers, it's a very bold move to empower impoverished and give them the ability to claim benefits...and not some anti freedom push. In any case I'm not living in India so I can't really comment, but again the situation is very interesting.
nacker 14y ago
"it can also be used to offer hundreds of millions their greatest chance at inclusion and a prosperous life." This would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. The banks are SO well known for their unselfish altruism. After all, they have pretty much raped the first world, and indebted generations to come. How lucky the Indian masses are, to be the latest objects of their, uh, generosity ?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
kindahero 14y ago
one example for how far our people can go with corruption., few days back the officials came to our village to issue these cards., they issued two cards for each (one for one hand, five finger prints are needed for one card) to claim the commission from government.
- intended 14y ago
  Wow. Govt chaps or outsourcers? Mind giving the village name? It would be useful if it could be converted into an rti request, or just simply for detailed knowledge on the types of scams one can expect.
JumpCrisscross 14y ago
The Indian biometric project is not unique in its aims nor scope to uniquely identify its population, simply the technology used to generate an ID. In the U.S. we have SSNs (social security numbers) and driver's licences. India is rolling out a 21st century answer to the problem of uniquely identifying its population with technology to minimise the probability of false, duplicate, or un-recoverable identities being created. The technology gives the Indian government the ability to "track" its citizens no further than the American government can "track" hers through their SSN-linked bank accounts, cell phones, and government office activity. In a nut shell, the technology hashes an individual's iris and fingerprints into an ID, allowing for the ID to be easily verified in a de-centralised manner. In contrast, verifying a U.S. ID requires patching in to a centralised database. Can an iris scan and fingerprint be faked? Of course. But I'm not sure who's arguing for the security of U.S. identity cards given that a stroll through Greenwich Village will afford me multiple solicitations for fake IDs. Ignore even the problems of having a democracy where you don't know who your citizens are nor if nor how many times they've voted and think about how difficult it would be for an individual with no verifiable identity to enter into a long-term contract. Would you give him a mortgage? Or a loan to plant his fields? Knowing well that if he doesn't feel like paying you back he can change the name he goes by and you won't know the wiser? On the other side, if you're a government official who knows nobody knows how many people are in your district, wouldn't you feel less comfortable embezzling funds from intended recipients if they had a way of proving they never received their handout?
- stfu 14y ago
  Am I the only one who is wondering how this comment ended up on top of this discussion? The argument seems highly problematic. How far is a government allowed to go "to minimise the probability of false, duplicate, or un-recoverable identities". Let us pretend for a moment, that these are indeed core issues, that justify a billion dollar project. If a government is allowed to intrude personal freedom just because the technology is there, why don't we make caring a gps tracking device mandatory for everyone leaving their registered residence. I mean, it is keeping the streets save, right? What gives a government the right to demand from someone fingerprints and iris scans, but not demand the GPS tracking or mandatory DNA samples of every citizen. If we go on and just lament that this is just how it is and government has to keep the streets clean, these steps are consequential. After all a few decades ago nobody cared about fingerprints, and it was purely some crime-fighting technique. And so are DNA samples and monitoring anklets today. U.S.'s tracing abilities given in the example based bank accounts or cell phones are voluntary, i.e. I can take a bag of cash and a throw away phone and government agencies would have to put substantial manpower into keeping track of my actions. With the iris scan, all they need to do is have a high resolution camera installed at the front of the store and they know where I spend that money.
pycassa 14y ago
good.. if they start planning now.. we, indians would get these at the end of this decade...
ashray 14y ago
I think our HN conspiracy theorists have missed the point by a bit. Lets just put it this way, India still has a ton of illiterate people. The only way that they can usually sign documents/enter into contracts is by placing their (inked) fingerprints on documents. There is no unified ID system in India so far. There is no unique ID card that each citizen can carry. This is a 21st century solution to a problem that has existed for a long time. You know how you open a bank account in India ? - Walk into the bank - Fill up a form - Provide a photograph - Provide a proof of ID (voter's ID, passport, etc.) - Provide a proof of address (this can be a voter's ID, utility bill, etc. - has to be different from the one above..) Here's where stuff starts to get real interesting. You can't get a voter's ID without a proof of address (that can be a bank statement, utility bill, etc.) - the same contraints apply to the others. So you can't get a proof of address without a proof of address. See where this is going ? (or isn't :P) The lack of a unified ID system in India is a massive problem. An Iris Scan + Fingerprints are the only way to really ensure that a person is who they are supposed to be. (many burn victims do not have fingerprints, many blind people may not have irises) Personally, I welcome the opportunity to be able to open a bank account/do other administrative shit with just one ID card. I've had enough with all the extra nonsensical documentation that every establishment requires. I certainly see the privacy/trackability downside to it. But lets be honest. I've been to the US and Europe. Their respective governments have my fingerprints/iris scans (needed for visas), it's not really a big deal if the Indian government has them too. The global tracking of populations ship has already sailed. India's just getting on the bandwagon as far as that is concerned.
- wisty 14y ago
  Also, remember the society of dead people? People who were declared legally dead (often by relatives) and were unable to prove their existence to the government?
  - chimeracoder 14y ago
    For those who are curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_Dead_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_De...
nmridul 14y ago
Let me tell you what it is trying to solve. If I'm a poor and illiterate in India, I neither know what special programs or subsidies the government has for me (I'm illiterate and the news does not reach me). The middle men already has forged my identities and the amount that the Government sent me is already shared by them in the middle. This is what the government is trying to solve. To make sure that what is being sent is received by the correct person. It may not solve it entirely. But at the very least it will make it difficult for the middle men to forge the identities now. Or at the worst case, the middle men will have to share a portion of what they receive with the end user (the poor me). When you look at it from a first world perspective, then your freedom and government control seems to be the main concern. But when you have had no food for the last week and you don't have your own house and have no way to feed your family, then the freedom to shout against my government is my last priority.
- intended 14y ago
  But that's not what it's being used for. UID compulsory for gas? UID being used for all sorts Of things other than assistance to the poor. UID data being compromised already - first hand account in this thread. Constant feature creep. Every single person who has such positive hopes needs to take a good long look at its real implementation, it's reall failings and it's drawbacks. Without looking at potential possible positives.
  - nmridul 14y ago
    Cooking gas is heavily subsidized in India. Maybe not many poor are able to afford it, but still the lower middle class rely on this subsidized gas. And this is one way the government can try to reduce the misuse. I'm not saying it will completely remove the misuse. But any reduction is good for the society.
    - intended 14y ago
      All of these are cost/benefits. If the cost is giving extremely powerful abilities to an entity which finds its best interests in playing communal games to score points in its vote base, then the lesser of two evils is corruption. Any reduction is not good for society when it comes with huge costs.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

84 points by millerski150 14y ago

I realize this may be a very american perspective, but I can't imagine any tradeoff that would make this "worth it" for me. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. - Benjamin Franklin.

Jabbles 14y ago
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin Without the word "essential", this quote sounds very absolute and idealistic, which was of course not the intention.
- sgt 14y ago
  Exactly the quote that came to my mind too. Sometimes you need to be somewhat absolute and idealistic. I feel sorry for India.
- tzs 14y ago
  The word "temporary" is also quite important in that quote, and often omitted.
- AndyIngram 14y ago
  Where are they giving up liberty. You have to look at the problems from an India perspective not a first world one. Personal identification is a solved problem here but in India lack of trust and lack of access prevents many people from gaining liberty. This system will allow a greater number of people to access government programs, education, and financial tools like bank accounts. That being said there needs to be some safe guards in place to prevent the police state scenarios that many here seem to be worried about.
  - intended 14y ago
    I'm Indian, I've looked at it from an Indian perspective and plain logic tells me this is insane. Heck leave alone our country men and their talent at finding loopholes or the corruption of our system. When I know first hand that the debate internally amongst the world bank and nandan nilekani went from trying to tackle the privacy issues to "my role is to give every Indian a number" (second hand quote) my hair stands on end. Not to mention that the system already creates duplicates and overlaps, which then compound which each subsequent generation. Or the fact that we already have bad data from outsourcers who just jammed info into the system, or the fact that the laptops were stolen. I think we lost data recently too. This is just a bad idea.
  - zmmmmm 14y ago
    Biometric security has always been a disaster which is why real projects using it almost never end up being realized. The article portrays it as if the reason India is the first to do this is because they are somehow uniquely able to take advantage of technology. The reality is that the reason they are the first is that everybody realized how flawed it is. In terms of liberty - a biometric id is, by definition, an "involuntary" identity. It's something you're unable to change or refuse to yield, even if you choose to. A person with a non-biometric identity can freely destroy all forms of that identity and then they cannot be identified any more by it. They have the freedom to produce it when they wish to be identified, and to choose not to when they wish to remain anonymous. A biometric identity is a non "opt out" identity. It can never be changed or altered, and can be forcibly read by anybody with physical control over you. Hence there is a great loss of liberty in a biometric identity, and when you really think it through, almost no advantages that can't be obtained from a non-biometric identity.
scdoshi 14y ago
I can understand the liberty v/s security implications, but I don't understand when people in the US feel they are better off in terms of liberty. This is essentially SSN implemented in the 21st century. And you can't get a job, buy/rent a house, or get a bank account without an SSN The fact that you can be anonymous in the U.S. and still live a life inside of regular society is a complete myth. And I think most people accept the fact that the SSN is in fact necessary. India does not have any such system, instead of the SSN, they have ten different numbers attached to a person. All this does is make the ID part of it uniform. The biometric part is not the focus here, the ID part is, which pretty much every developed country already has. The biometric part is just a means to get the ID part done better. Just to reiterate, I understand the liberty v/s security implications, but americans have already given theirs up for security, so maybe that's just the price to pay of being a developed nation.
- Negitivefrags 14y ago
  I've actually noticed that citizens of the US need to provide their SSN in a huge number of situations that I would never need to provide any kind of government identification. The closest thing we have to an ID that every citizen has is an IRD number for the purposes of tax. You would give that to your bank and your employer so that they can pay tax on your behalf, but even that is optional. If you don't provide it then they will assume that you pay tax at the highest rate. Compare to when I was staying a friends house in the US and heard him give his SSN to the phone company when he was troubleshooting his internet. I find it baffling that you would need a government issued ID number just to form a relationship with a phone company.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - graue 14y ago
    It would be useful when making this sort of comment if you mentioned where you live.
- joelrunyon 14y ago
  But the biometric part means that scanners/computers/systems can ID you with your consent and/or knowledge. At least with a SSN, you have to consent and give them it.

Craiggybear 14y ago

Apart from never being able to make this work, what would be a better way of lifting people out of poverty and making their lives better would be the government to abolish the caste system. Indian society is a mess and this won't change a damn thing. Apart from making the lives of the desperately poor even more bureaucracy-ridden and miserable.

patrickgzill 14y ago

This will allow massive credit expansion in India, as being trackable means lending companies can more easily identify people. Same thing has happened in the Philippines over the last 10 years, easy credit has exploded.

mindslight 14y ago
And this is a good development? Institutionalized credit is merely a market-based mechanism for the gradual erosion of freedom. It brings economic gain in the short term, as people are able to step outside the prejudices restricting their informal local credit. However for the long term, just take a look at the debt treadmill most everyone in the US is on. (idk why you're being downvoted; you're correct)
- nacker 14y ago
  Exactly. No doubt the scam that is Grameen Bank will be licking their chops. Microcredit or Macrowelfare: The Myth of Grameen https://mises.org/daily/2375 https://mises.org/daily/2375
- sgt 14y ago
  I'm not sure whether OP thinks this is a good thing or not, but I certainly hope not. Being universally trackable by government is one of the most evil things I can think of right now. Once this starts, we know what's coming in a few years - an RFID in every person (or similar, possibly more advanced technology). Say goodbye to individual freedom.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - mindslight 14y ago
    I'd thought about elaborating to head off this comment. This is true when credit first arrives on the scene. People looking for loans are thinking in terms of paying the money back, and the benefit they'll have from temporary use of the money. Over time, this extra money drives prices up (especially with collateralized loans), and causes credit to be increasingly necessary to even afford the items in question. People then think in terms of economic rent, with little intention of paying back the principle. (See: US housing market). It's still true that in every instance, one ultimately chooses to borrow the money. It's just that it becomes impossible to lead a 'normal life' without doing so.

anuraj 14y ago

Given India's track record on surveillance, this can become a security nightmare for its populace. The chances of this data being misused by various detrimental interests are very real and is already happening. India need to be much more open and populace needs to be more educated before biometric identification can achieve positive outcome.

avjinder 14y ago

I live in India and I had my fingerprints and my irises scanned almost 6 months ago. This is mostly being done to curb impersonation at polling booths during elections and to stop credit card/pension/cellular connections etc. fraud. This is a big step for India and I hope they succeed.

jackfoxy 14y ago

Didn't even make it through the fist paragraph before I hit this gem A small group of entrepreneurs within the government... IMO says a lot about the biases of the reporter and probably the site as well. Franklin may be frequently misquoted (as pointed out by another commenter here), but the liberty/security trade-off is real. Personally I tend to err on the side of liberty idealism. It's clear there are plenty of interests pulling for the other side.

smokeyj 14y ago
So many gems in this one. > One area in desperate need of disruption is the delivery of government services. Seeing disruptive describe a bureaucratic process is tickling. > Over time, systematic corruption and mismanagement have bred bad data, false information and outright fraud ... Poor laborers and migrant workers, in particular, are forced to travel far from their homes to collect their wages and benefits, having to dole out bribes to predatory middlemen along the way. So now we're empowering a corrupt monopoly with biometric intelligence on every citizen in the country. What could possibly go wrong..
- ftuiz 14y ago
  take a look at this one,i can already see where they are going.they will en-roll everyone or force everyone to en-roll so that big corporates can spy on us/profile us .. man this is sad http://bangalore.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/3600-bengaluru-uid-aadhaar-operators-violating-privacy http://bangalore.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/3600-bengal... (note :i live in India)
  - smokeyj 14y ago
    I think most of the industrialized world will go through this inevitably, but it's important to remember that liberty is a long term strategy that requires education and diligence. In a way, India is about to prove why biometric data on every citizen is a bad idea. We need to see how such data can be abused to fully understand how dangerous such data is in the wrong hands. Sure tptacek might come on down and tell us how such regulation should be thanked, but we're about to witness a controlled experiment that proves the contrary. My money is on a more controlled extortion apparatus ;)

shell0x 14y ago

What are the advantages of using this system over a normal passport? It seems like just another country trying to get a good reputation as a surveillance state :(

binarymax 14y ago

A fascinating article was in the New Yorker about this here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_parker http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_... (sorry it's behind a paywall). To the naysayers, it's a very bold move to empower impoverished and give them the ability to claim benefits...and not some anti freedom push. In any case I'm not living in India so I can't really comment, but again the situation is very interesting.

nacker 14y ago

"it can also be used to offer hundreds of millions their greatest chance at inclusion and a prosperous life." This would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. The banks are SO well known for their unselfish altruism. After all, they have pretty much raped the first world, and indebted generations to come. How lucky the Indian masses are, to be the latest objects of their, uh, generosity ?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

kindahero 14y ago

one example for how far our people can go with corruption., few days back the officials came to our village to issue these cards., they issued two cards for each (one for one hand, five finger prints are needed for one card) to claim the commission from government.

intended 14y ago
Wow. Govt chaps or outsourcers? Mind giving the village name? It would be useful if it could be converted into an rti request, or just simply for detailed knowledge on the types of scams one can expect.

JumpCrisscross 14y ago

The Indian biometric project is not unique in its aims nor scope to uniquely identify its population, simply the technology used to generate an ID. In the U.S. we have SSNs (social security numbers) and driver's licences. India is rolling out a 21st century answer to the problem of uniquely identifying its population with technology to minimise the probability of false, duplicate, or un-recoverable identities being created. The technology gives the Indian government the ability to "track" its citizens no further than the American government can "track" hers through their SSN-linked bank accounts, cell phones, and government office activity. In a nut shell, the technology hashes an individual's iris and fingerprints into an ID, allowing for the ID to be easily verified in a de-centralised manner. In contrast, verifying a U.S. ID requires patching in to a centralised database. Can an iris scan and fingerprint be faked? Of course. But I'm not sure who's arguing for the security of U.S. identity cards given that a stroll through Greenwich Village will afford me multiple solicitations for fake IDs. Ignore even the problems of having a democracy where you don't know who your citizens are nor if nor how many times they've voted and think about how difficult it would be for an individual with no verifiable identity to enter into a long-term contract. Would you give him a mortgage? Or a loan to plant his fields? Knowing well that if he doesn't feel like paying you back he can change the name he goes by and you won't know the wiser? On the other side, if you're a government official who knows nobody knows how many people are in your district, wouldn't you feel less comfortable embezzling funds from intended recipients if they had a way of proving they never received their handout?

stfu 14y ago
Am I the only one who is wondering how this comment ended up on top of this discussion? The argument seems highly problematic. How far is a government allowed to go "to minimise the probability of false, duplicate, or un-recoverable identities". Let us pretend for a moment, that these are indeed core issues, that justify a billion dollar project. If a government is allowed to intrude personal freedom just because the technology is there, why don't we make caring a gps tracking device mandatory for everyone leaving their registered residence. I mean, it is keeping the streets save, right? What gives a government the right to demand from someone fingerprints and iris scans, but not demand the GPS tracking or mandatory DNA samples of every citizen. If we go on and just lament that this is just how it is and government has to keep the streets clean, these steps are consequential. After all a few decades ago nobody cared about fingerprints, and it was purely some crime-fighting technique. And so are DNA samples and monitoring anklets today. U.S.'s tracing abilities given in the example based bank accounts or cell phones are voluntary, i.e. I can take a bag of cash and a throw away phone and government agencies would have to put substantial manpower into keeping track of my actions. With the iris scan, all they need to do is have a high resolution camera installed at the front of the store and they know where I spend that money.

pycassa 14y ago

good.. if they start planning now.. we, indians would get these at the end of this decade...

ashray 14y ago

I think our HN conspiracy theorists have missed the point by a bit. Lets just put it this way, India still has a ton of illiterate people. The only way that they can usually sign documents/enter into contracts is by placing their (inked) fingerprints on documents. There is no unified ID system in India so far. There is no unique ID card that each citizen can carry. This is a 21st century solution to a problem that has existed for a long time. You know how you open a bank account in India ? - Walk into the bank - Fill up a form - Provide a photograph - Provide a proof of ID (voter's ID, passport, etc.) - Provide a proof of address (this can be a voter's ID, utility bill, etc. - has to be different from the one above..) Here's where stuff starts to get real interesting. You can't get a voter's ID without a proof of address (that can be a bank statement, utility bill, etc.) - the same contraints apply to the others. So you can't get a proof of address without a proof of address. See where this is going ? (or isn't :P) The lack of a unified ID system in India is a massive problem. An Iris Scan + Fingerprints are the only way to really ensure that a person is who they are supposed to be. (many burn victims do not have fingerprints, many blind people may not have irises) Personally, I welcome the opportunity to be able to open a bank account/do other administrative shit with just one ID card. I've had enough with all the extra nonsensical documentation that every establishment requires. I certainly see the privacy/trackability downside to it. But lets be honest. I've been to the US and Europe. Their respective governments have my fingerprints/iris scans (needed for visas), it's not really a big deal if the Indian government has them too. The global tracking of populations ship has already sailed. India's just getting on the bandwagon as far as that is concerned.

wisty 14y ago
Also, remember the society of dead people? People who were declared legally dead (often by relatives) and were unable to prove their existence to the government?
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  For those who are curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_Dead_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_De...

nmridul 14y ago

Let me tell you what it is trying to solve. If I'm a poor and illiterate in India, I neither know what special programs or subsidies the government has for me (I'm illiterate and the news does not reach me). The middle men already has forged my identities and the amount that the Government sent me is already shared by them in the middle. This is what the government is trying to solve. To make sure that what is being sent is received by the correct person. It may not solve it entirely. But at the very least it will make it difficult for the middle men to forge the identities now. Or at the worst case, the middle men will have to share a portion of what they receive with the end user (the poor me). When you look at it from a first world perspective, then your freedom and government control seems to be the main concern. But when you have had no food for the last week and you don't have your own house and have no way to feed your family, then the freedom to shout against my government is my last priority.

intended 14y ago
But that's not what it's being used for. UID compulsory for gas? UID being used for all sorts Of things other than assistance to the poor. UID data being compromised already - first hand account in this thread. Constant feature creep. Every single person who has such positive hopes needs to take a good long look at its real implementation, it's reall failings and it's drawbacks. Without looking at potential possible positives.
- nmridul 14y ago
  Cooking gas is heavily subsidized in India. Maybe not many poor are able to afford it, but still the lower middle class rely on this subsidized gas. And this is one way the government can try to reduce the misuse. I'm not saying it will completely remove the misuse. But any reduction is good for the society.
  - intended 14y ago
    All of these are cost/benefits. If the cost is giving extremely powerful abilities to an entity which finds its best interests in playing communal games to score points in its vote base, then the lesser of two evils is corruption. Any reduction is not good for society when it comes with huge costs.

deleted 14y ago

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