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The Rust code written here is so easy to follow but all these new Python tooling being written in Rust worries me, it adds yes another vector to the N-language

The Rust code written here is so easy to follow but all these new Python tooling being written in Rust worries me, it adds yes another vector to the N-language problem. I hope Mojo can offer something here

nine_k 1y ago
For the Python ecosystem, it's natural to use Python where Python can cope, and a high-performance language where it cannot. There are two such languages in wide use around Python: Rust, and, inevitably, C. So N = 3. (C, to my mind, should be eventually phased out from application programming altogether, so N would be 2, but it's a loooooong process; Python may become a legacy language before it converges.)
- fluidcruft 1y ago
  Yes but the idea is that by slightly upgrading python code to mojo (which is a controlled superset of python), you get complied very high performance code. So for example if it were possible to convert mypy to mojo it could be as fast as rust but pythonic.
  - Hasnep 1y ago
    By the way, Mojo seems to have given up on being a strict superset of python, I think they're aiming for more of a C++ to C relationship where there are some small differences, but the majority of code will work without modification.
    - melodyogonna 1y ago
      It has not. They decided to change the messaging to reflect what the language is to today because people kept thinking it is already a superset
      - Hasnep 1y ago
        Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense than them giving up.
alisonatwork 1y ago
Sadly I think the ship has sailed and Rust has hit critical mass now. Personally I find it aesthetically awkward, but for Python integration and tooling it seems like Rust has become the default C replacement. You would think Python devs might have preferred something more superficially Pythonic like Nim or perhaps something more C-ish like Zig, but those projects don't have the same buzz so here we are. There's probably more young devs who are into Rust than C nowadays. I am not holding out much hope for Mojo because it feels deeply embedded in the AI/LLM hype space instead of being presented to Python devs outside of that niche as a useful language extension in its own right.
- melodyogonna 1y ago
  I don't think it really matters whether Rust has hit critical mass or not tbh, just the fact that it is entirely a new language to learn with very different semantics compared to Python is a blocker for many people. Mojo right now is not much better, but I've seen Python compatibility factor into the language design and semantics again and again. It is not enough to be a language that looks like Python, like Nim, things also have to behave the same when the semantics of static typing allows. Mojo is not deeply embedded in the AI/LLM hype, there is nothing in the language that is targeted specifically for AI. The standard Library has a GPU package for general-purpose gpu programming, but that isn't AI specific.
  - alisonatwork 1y ago
    I am sure the language is capable, but if you search "mojo python" then the top hit is https://www.modular.com/mojo https://www.modular.com/mojo where the first line on the page talks about AI inference and the first code example seems to be referencing ML models or something completely unrelated to the everyday Python programming that people outside of the data science field do. Alternatively if you try to search for the Github repo for Mojo, you end up here: https://github.com/modular/modular https://github.com/modular/modular Which is all about control planes and k8s and AI something something. Sure, it seems this is just a monorepo under which one of the folders actually is Mojo itself, but this packaging does not inspire confidence that the creators of the language are interested in building a language that exists outside of their ecosystem.

nine_k 1y ago

For the Python ecosystem, it's natural to use Python where Python can cope, and a high-performance language where it cannot. There are two such languages in wide use around Python: Rust, and, inevitably, C. So N = 3. (C, to my mind, should be eventually phased out from application programming altogether, so N would be 2, but it's a loooooong process; Python may become a legacy language before it converges.)

fluidcruft 1y ago
Yes but the idea is that by slightly upgrading python code to mojo (which is a controlled superset of python), you get complied very high performance code. So for example if it were possible to convert mypy to mojo it could be as fast as rust but pythonic.
- Hasnep 1y ago
  By the way, Mojo seems to have given up on being a strict superset of python, I think they're aiming for more of a C++ to C relationship where there are some small differences, but the majority of code will work without modification.
  - melodyogonna 1y ago
    It has not. They decided to change the messaging to reflect what the language is to today because people kept thinking it is already a superset
    - Hasnep 1y ago
      Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense than them giving up.

alisonatwork 1y ago

Sadly I think the ship has sailed and Rust has hit critical mass now. Personally I find it aesthetically awkward, but for Python integration and tooling it seems like Rust has become the default C replacement. You would think Python devs might have preferred something more superficially Pythonic like Nim or perhaps something more C-ish like Zig, but those projects don't have the same buzz so here we are. There's probably more young devs who are into Rust than C nowadays. I am not holding out much hope for Mojo because it feels deeply embedded in the AI/LLM hype space instead of being presented to Python devs outside of that niche as a useful language extension in its own right.

melodyogonna 1y ago
I don't think it really matters whether Rust has hit critical mass or not tbh, just the fact that it is entirely a new language to learn with very different semantics compared to Python is a blocker for many people. Mojo right now is not much better, but I've seen Python compatibility factor into the language design and semantics again and again. It is not enough to be a language that looks like Python, like Nim, things also have to behave the same when the semantics of static typing allows. Mojo is not deeply embedded in the AI/LLM hype, there is nothing in the language that is targeted specifically for AI. The standard Library has a GPU package for general-purpose gpu programming, but that isn't AI specific.
- alisonatwork 1y ago
  I am sure the language is capable, but if you search "mojo python" then the top hit is https://www.modular.com/mojo https://www.modular.com/mojo where the first line on the page talks about AI inference and the first code example seems to be referencing ML models or something completely unrelated to the everyday Python programming that people outside of the data science field do. Alternatively if you try to search for the Github repo for Mojo, you end up here: https://github.com/modular/modular https://github.com/modular/modular Which is all about control planes and k8s and AI something something. Sure, it seems this is just a monorepo under which one of the folders actually is Mojo itself, but this packaging does not inspire confidence that the creators of the language are interested in building a language that exists outside of their ecosystem.