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The funny thing about Japan is they have this wonderful universal IC card, but not everywhere accepts it, some accept only it, some only accept cash, some only

The funny thing about Japan is they have this wonderful universal IC card, but not everywhere accepts it, some accept only it, some only accept cash, some only cash or physical credit card, some only QR (PayPay), so you end up needing to carry several methods, and one of them is paper and coins!

ksdnjweusdnkl21 1y ago
It's amazingly fractured actually. In my home country every store pretty much has the same exact model of a card reader that takes all contacless payments and credit cards with chips. In Japan it's a coinflip wether a credit card reader can take contactless credit cards. And if you do it with the chip, it's always a fun process of the clerk not understanding you need to insert a pin or select a currency, so they sometimes abort the process in confusion. Needless to say, I prefer to use cash in Japan.
socalgal2 1y ago
Variety is good! The fact the USA only has Mastercard and Visa and that they've colluded to keep all other forms of payments out is why their fees aren't lower. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-visa-monopolizing-debit-markets https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-s... Japan has competition in payment systems. Paypay, D-Pay, Meri-pay, Line Pay, Rakuten Pay, etc... Each tries to entice both customers and retailers by offering discounts and bonuses. Also I'm happy to pay cash as it's private.
- starttoaster 1y ago
  USA has Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and AmEx. Each of which try to entice their customers by offering better rewards programs. Though AmEx isn't taken everywhere (notably Costco) and Discover is hit and miss as well.
  - kaladin-jasnah 1y ago
    It's funny, because the Costco credit card used to be AmEx. IIRC Costco Canada only takes Mastercard, which is funny since the US Costco credit card is Visa, so you can't use the US Costco CC to pay in a Canadian Costco.
    - Marsymars 1y ago
      You actually can use the Costco US Visa at Canadian Costco, they’ve got a special exemption for it. (And vice-versa, you can use the Canadian Costco Mastercard at American Costco.)
  - socalgal2 1y ago
    Japan has all of those as well and about 30 more
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    The rewards programs are the anti-competitive lock-in. Visa and Mastercard charge high fees because their dominant market position forces merchants to accept them. Then they use part of the fees to bribe customers with rewards programs. A new payment network doesn't have leverage against merchants so can't charge the same high fees and therefore can't offer the same rewards programs, but then they can't get consumers to use their card, which is what they would need in order to get any leverage. The rewards programs are a grift. The price of everything goes up by 3% and if you get a rewards card you get 1-2% of it back, therefore you get one. Then you're still out the other 1-2% you wouldn't have been if the market was competitive, the people who don't get one get punished by being out the entire 3% (which inhibits competitors with lower fees), and Visa and Mastercard suck billions of dollars out of the economy into their Scrooge McDuck money bin because consumers have been defrauded into thinking this arrangement is to their advantage.
    - no_wizard 1y ago
      This is a great argument for forcing network interop. Akin to net neutrality, allow card companies to transit over the network for reasonable rates. This removes any networks ability to squeeze things like this
      - Panzer04 1y ago
        It depends where the division is, I guess. It always feels a bit heavy-handed to force private companies to interoperate within their infrastructure. That being said, I don't really know a better way to do it. Having terminals be more universal would be good, but good luck replacing old ones and convincing entrenched market participants to offer them.. The newer generation of products like BNPL are even worse; they often contractually prevent merchants from charging a surcharge commensurate with the cost of accepting that payment method.
    - eloisius 1y ago
      Even being aware of all that, I don't feel I've been defrauded. I don't have to carry around a wad of cash that can be lost or stolen, and on the rare occasions that I need to I can get the help of the credit card company in recovering money when I actually get defrauded.
threeseed 1y ago
Australia was the first country to widely support chip/pin and then tap/pay. Even here cash is coming back into vogue as costs are pushing small businesses to evade taxes. I was in Tokyo last week and it was similar businesses i.e. mostly smaller and in lower margin industries.
- bondant 1y ago
  >Australia was the first country to widely support chip/pin Do you have any source on that? I find it rather surprising.
  - bobthepanda 1y ago
    I don’t know if it’s that surprising. It’s easy to migrate over small markets and the population of Australia is extremely geographically concentrated.
  - bigfatkitten 1y ago
    Australia wasn’t the first, but it did have the second highest adoption rate of contactless payments in the world at one point, behind New Zealand. In Australia, it helped that there were only about five POS acquirers of note (the big four banks plus Tyro), who owned pretty much all the terminal hardware.
lhl 1y ago
On my shotengai there are many cash only shops and some cashless shops right next to it. I've also seen a lot of shops that are cash except for PayPay (presumably incentivized, or maybe they can support it without additional hardware). While it's a bit annoying, it's still better than the alternative (payment monopolies). The only thing that does irk me a little is that JR stations only support swipe, not touch pay for credit cards. I'm a bit undecided if that's just due to legacy hardware or as a subtle nudge to get people to use Suica instead. For Japanese payments, what's far worse is that so many shops and chains continue to have point systems that require their own point cards (and even the ones with apps seem to have awful slow UIs, at least on my iPhone).

ksdnjweusdnkl21 1y ago

It's amazingly fractured actually. In my home country every store pretty much has the same exact model of a card reader that takes all contacless payments and credit cards with chips. In Japan it's a coinflip wether a credit card reader can take contactless credit cards. And if you do it with the chip, it's always a fun process of the clerk not understanding you need to insert a pin or select a currency, so they sometimes abort the process in confusion. Needless to say, I prefer to use cash in Japan.

socalgal2 1y ago

Variety is good! The fact the USA only has Mastercard and Visa and that they've colluded to keep all other forms of payments out is why their fees aren't lower. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-visa-monopolizing-debit-markets https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-s... Japan has competition in payment systems. Paypay, D-Pay, Meri-pay, Line Pay, Rakuten Pay, etc... Each tries to entice both customers and retailers by offering discounts and bonuses. Also I'm happy to pay cash as it's private.

starttoaster 1y ago
USA has Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and AmEx. Each of which try to entice their customers by offering better rewards programs. Though AmEx isn't taken everywhere (notably Costco) and Discover is hit and miss as well.
- kaladin-jasnah 1y ago
  It's funny, because the Costco credit card used to be AmEx. IIRC Costco Canada only takes Mastercard, which is funny since the US Costco credit card is Visa, so you can't use the US Costco CC to pay in a Canadian Costco.
  - Marsymars 1y ago
    You actually can use the Costco US Visa at Canadian Costco, they’ve got a special exemption for it. (And vice-versa, you can use the Canadian Costco Mastercard at American Costco.)
- socalgal2 1y ago
  Japan has all of those as well and about 30 more
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  The rewards programs are the anti-competitive lock-in. Visa and Mastercard charge high fees because their dominant market position forces merchants to accept them. Then they use part of the fees to bribe customers with rewards programs. A new payment network doesn't have leverage against merchants so can't charge the same high fees and therefore can't offer the same rewards programs, but then they can't get consumers to use their card, which is what they would need in order to get any leverage. The rewards programs are a grift. The price of everything goes up by 3% and if you get a rewards card you get 1-2% of it back, therefore you get one. Then you're still out the other 1-2% you wouldn't have been if the market was competitive, the people who don't get one get punished by being out the entire 3% (which inhibits competitors with lower fees), and Visa and Mastercard suck billions of dollars out of the economy into their Scrooge McDuck money bin because consumers have been defrauded into thinking this arrangement is to their advantage.
  - no_wizard 1y ago
    This is a great argument for forcing network interop. Akin to net neutrality, allow card companies to transit over the network for reasonable rates. This removes any networks ability to squeeze things like this
    - Panzer04 1y ago
      It depends where the division is, I guess. It always feels a bit heavy-handed to force private companies to interoperate within their infrastructure. That being said, I don't really know a better way to do it. Having terminals be more universal would be good, but good luck replacing old ones and convincing entrenched market participants to offer them.. The newer generation of products like BNPL are even worse; they often contractually prevent merchants from charging a surcharge commensurate with the cost of accepting that payment method.
  - eloisius 1y ago
    Even being aware of all that, I don't feel I've been defrauded. I don't have to carry around a wad of cash that can be lost or stolen, and on the rare occasions that I need to I can get the help of the credit card company in recovering money when I actually get defrauded.

threeseed 1y ago

Australia was the first country to widely support chip/pin and then tap/pay. Even here cash is coming back into vogue as costs are pushing small businesses to evade taxes. I was in Tokyo last week and it was similar businesses i.e. mostly smaller and in lower margin industries.

bondant 1y ago
>Australia was the first country to widely support chip/pin Do you have any source on that? I find it rather surprising.
- bobthepanda 1y ago
  I don’t know if it’s that surprising. It’s easy to migrate over small markets and the population of Australia is extremely geographically concentrated.
- bigfatkitten 1y ago
  Australia wasn’t the first, but it did have the second highest adoption rate of contactless payments in the world at one point, behind New Zealand. In Australia, it helped that there were only about five POS acquirers of note (the big four banks plus Tyro), who owned pretty much all the terminal hardware.

lhl 1y ago

On my shotengai there are many cash only shops and some cashless shops right next to it. I've also seen a lot of shops that are cash except for PayPay (presumably incentivized, or maybe they can support it without additional hardware). While it's a bit annoying, it's still better than the alternative (payment monopolies). The only thing that does irk me a little is that JR stations only support swipe, not touch pay for credit cards. I'm a bit undecided if that's just due to legacy hardware or as a subtle nudge to get people to use Suica instead. For Japanese payments, what's far worse is that so many shops and chains continue to have point systems that require their own point cards (and even the ones with apps seem to have awful slow UIs, at least on my iPhone).