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Unfortunately transit operators are looking to discontinue the use of these IC cards in favour of QR codes as part of a cost saving strategy: https://mainichi.j

by pwim 1y ago

Unfortunately transit operators are looking to discontinue the use of these IC cards in favour of QR codes as part of a cost saving strategy: https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20241015/p2a/00m/0bu/011000c https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20241015/p2a/00m/0bu/01...

charcircuit 1y ago
That article doesn't say they are. >It will continue to accept national IC cards such as Suica and Icoca
- cmcaleer 1y ago
  I hope it lasts, but I'm seeing gates which have QR code readers, IC card readers,and contactless payment readers, which is obviously unsustainable. One or more of these will have to give eventually, and given Japan's tolerance for QR code payments (PayPay is massive) and foreigners' familiarity with contactless it seems like IC is the most likely one to go. I'd be sad if they do go or get relegated to some app, I love the little mascots.
  - lozenge 1y ago
    I thought contactless is considered too slow? The exit gates are often open and only close when somebody attempts to pass without their IC card/insufficient balance on the IC card, how does this work with contactless? I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering.
    - Tijdreiziger 1y ago
      > I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering. This is the case in the Netherlands. The same readers accept the old OV-chipkaart (stored-value) system and the new OVpay (EMV) system. Actually, I feel like when the OVpay system was rolled out, the existing OV-chipkaart readers simply got a firmware update, giving them the ability to read EMV cards and phones. Both of these systems work across all tranit modes and operators in the entire country (and even at a few stations across the German border), and there are various models of reader that are used. (note: OV = openbaar vervoer = public transport)
    - numpad0 1y ago
      They've gotten NFC VISA payWave at least comparably fast as FeliCa by skipping a few checks. It's still not as fast as genuine Suica - look how hard these men force their own fist to stay on the reader like their pay depends on it[1], but Suica advantages are slowly becoming a tougher sell with population and economy going a long way down. 1: A 2021 VISA touch-to-ride demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5S615UQtU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5S615UQtU
  - avianlyric 1y ago
    > I hope it lasts, but I'm seeing gates which have QR code readers, IC card readers,and contactless payment readers, which is obviously unsustainable. Why is this obvious unsustainable? The IC readers and contactless payment readers are normally built on exactly the same tech, or very similar tech. And they’re pretty much always just a single reader capable handling IC cards and contactless payments locally, with back office processing to manage bookkeeping, and any needed external transaction processing. TfL in London has been operating paper tickets, contactless and IC card for something like two decades now. The IC system is starting to show its age, but that’s only because the current stored value cards don’t have enough on-board storage to handle the continued growth of TfLs systems, and all the new regions they now operate in. But even if the IC system they have plans to migrate and merge their IC and contactless system into one system that can handle both payment types and provide proper feature parity between them.
- 0xCMP 1y ago
  There are several operators mentioned in the article. One is possibly switching entirely to QR because renewing the IC contract is too expensive. Some are cutting back to just Suica and Icoca. Some are switching to, or using from the start, tap-and-pay (Visa, EMV, etc.).
tonyhart7 1y ago
they want to replace that for cutting cost, this system is great when in large cities but in rural areas the speed,cost etc is excessive so there's that, I mean if we can optimize QR code system. the winner obviously would be QR because no need to have an dedicated hardware for this Yes, IC card would be faster but at what point the difference is matters???
- lxgr 1y ago
  A perfectly aligned QR code, displayed on a bright mobile phone display, can work acceptably fast. Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate… The biggest practical benefit of IC cards is that they are by nature always “armed”, unlike QR codes in apps, and are readable from both sides. On top of that, due to being able to run mutual authentication and being able to store a trusted balance, they are much more resilient to outages of any backend system. QR code tickets invariably need networking and a central backend.
  - em500 1y ago
    > Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate… This really comes down to adoption. In China, where QR is ubiquitous, almost everyone has the QR ready to scan well before they reach the scanner.
    - tonyhart7 1y ago
      if its work on country that has billions of passenger, it would works on everywhere else
      - lxgr 1y ago
        Not necessarily. Regular riders vs. infrequent riders or tourists can make a big difference, for example.
lxgr 1y ago
I believe QR codes are mostly intended to replace paper/magnetic single-ride tickets, not IC cards, in most transit systems. Magnetic tickets are already slower than IC cards, and are both more expensive to produce and harder to recycle than QR codes printed on regular paper.
- nayuki 1y ago
  That is quite interesting. I took normal-speed medium-distance trains in Taiwan and there are many similarities to Japan. The ticket-checking gates to enter/exit the station are exactly the same models used in Japan. The tickets are similar to the ones used in Japan, but they have a QR Code printed on them and might not be magnetic. Even when you exit the station, the ticket gate will give back your ticket - unlike Japan!
  - umbra07 1y ago
    Oh really? The two dmeo videos I just saw of the Japanese system seemed to give back your ticket as soon as you walked through the gate.
    - nayuki 1y ago
      The normal ticket gate behavior in Japan is that when you enter, the gate gives you the ticket back so that you can carry it all the way to the exit in order to prove that you traveled that journey. When you go through a ticket gate to exit the station, all Japanese ticket gates to my knowledge will dispose of your ticket.
      - notpushkin 1y ago
        I’ve retained at least some tickets, somehow. No idea!
        nayuki 1y ago
        I retained approximately one ticket in Japan. It was due to walking through a transfer exit gate at some station of the Tokyo Metro, which lets you walk through a non-fare-paid area to re-enter another station. I also retained all the Shinkansen seat reservation tickets (特急券) back when I had the old-style JR Pass, where you always had to enter/exit stations with help from the station attendant - and not use automatic ticket gates. I haven't tried the current style of JR Pass (since maybe 2022?), but I imagine that the exit gate would eat your seat reservation ticket, just like if you had bought the ticket in cash.

by pwim 1y ago

charcircuit 1y ago

That article doesn't say they are. >It will continue to accept national IC cards such as Suica and Icoca

cmcaleer 1y ago
I hope it lasts, but I'm seeing gates which have QR code readers, IC card readers,and contactless payment readers, which is obviously unsustainable. One or more of these will have to give eventually, and given Japan's tolerance for QR code payments (PayPay is massive) and foreigners' familiarity with contactless it seems like IC is the most likely one to go. I'd be sad if they do go or get relegated to some app, I love the little mascots.
- lozenge 1y ago
  I thought contactless is considered too slow? The exit gates are often open and only close when somebody attempts to pass without their IC card/insufficient balance on the IC card, how does this work with contactless? I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering.
  - Tijdreiziger 1y ago
    > I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering. This is the case in the Netherlands. The same readers accept the old OV-chipkaart (stored-value) system and the new OVpay (EMV) system. Actually, I feel like when the OVpay system was rolled out, the existing OV-chipkaart readers simply got a firmware update, giving them the ability to read EMV cards and phones. Both of these systems work across all tranit modes and operators in the entire country (and even at a few stations across the German border), and there are various models of reader that are used. (note: OV = openbaar vervoer = public transport)
  - numpad0 1y ago
    They've gotten NFC VISA payWave at least comparably fast as FeliCa by skipping a few checks. It's still not as fast as genuine Suica - look how hard these men force their own fist to stay on the reader like their pay depends on it[1], but Suica advantages are slowly becoming a tougher sell with population and economy going a long way down. 1: A 2021 VISA touch-to-ride demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5S615UQtU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5S615UQtU
- avianlyric 1y ago
  > I hope it lasts, but I'm seeing gates which have QR code readers, IC card readers,and contactless payment readers, which is obviously unsustainable. Why is this obvious unsustainable? The IC readers and contactless payment readers are normally built on exactly the same tech, or very similar tech. And they’re pretty much always just a single reader capable handling IC cards and contactless payments locally, with back office processing to manage bookkeeping, and any needed external transaction processing. TfL in London has been operating paper tickets, contactless and IC card for something like two decades now. The IC system is starting to show its age, but that’s only because the current stored value cards don’t have enough on-board storage to handle the continued growth of TfLs systems, and all the new regions they now operate in. But even if the IC system they have plans to migrate and merge their IC and contactless system into one system that can handle both payment types and provide proper feature parity between them.
0xCMP 1y ago
There are several operators mentioned in the article. One is possibly switching entirely to QR because renewing the IC contract is too expensive. Some are cutting back to just Suica and Icoca. Some are switching to, or using from the start, tap-and-pay (Visa, EMV, etc.).

tonyhart7 1y ago

they want to replace that for cutting cost, this system is great when in large cities but in rural areas the speed,cost etc is excessive so there's that, I mean if we can optimize QR code system. the winner obviously would be QR because no need to have an dedicated hardware for this Yes, IC card would be faster but at what point the difference is matters???

lxgr 1y ago
A perfectly aligned QR code, displayed on a bright mobile phone display, can work acceptably fast. Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate… The biggest practical benefit of IC cards is that they are by nature always “armed”, unlike QR codes in apps, and are readable from both sides. On top of that, due to being able to run mutual authentication and being able to store a trusted balance, they are much more resilient to outages of any backend system. QR code tickets invariably need networking and a central backend.
- em500 1y ago
  > Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate… This really comes down to adoption. In China, where QR is ubiquitous, almost everyone has the QR ready to scan well before they reach the scanner.
  - tonyhart7 1y ago
    if its work on country that has billions of passenger, it would works on everywhere else
    - lxgr 1y ago
      Not necessarily. Regular riders vs. infrequent riders or tourists can make a big difference, for example.

lxgr 1y ago

I believe QR codes are mostly intended to replace paper/magnetic single-ride tickets, not IC cards, in most transit systems. Magnetic tickets are already slower than IC cards, and are both more expensive to produce and harder to recycle than QR codes printed on regular paper.

nayuki 1y ago
That is quite interesting. I took normal-speed medium-distance trains in Taiwan and there are many similarities to Japan. The ticket-checking gates to enter/exit the station are exactly the same models used in Japan. The tickets are similar to the ones used in Japan, but they have a QR Code printed on them and might not be magnetic. Even when you exit the station, the ticket gate will give back your ticket - unlike Japan!
- umbra07 1y ago
  Oh really? The two dmeo videos I just saw of the Japanese system seemed to give back your ticket as soon as you walked through the gate.
  - nayuki 1y ago
    The normal ticket gate behavior in Japan is that when you enter, the gate gives you the ticket back so that you can carry it all the way to the exit in order to prove that you traveled that journey. When you go through a ticket gate to exit the station, all Japanese ticket gates to my knowledge will dispose of your ticket.
    - notpushkin 1y ago
      I’ve retained at least some tickets, somehow. No idea!
      - nayuki 1y ago
        I retained approximately one ticket in Japan. It was due to walking through a transfer exit gate at some station of the Tokyo Metro, which lets you walk through a non-fare-paid area to re-enter another station. I also retained all the Shinkansen seat reservation tickets (特急券) back when I had the old-style JR Pass, where you always had to enter/exit stations with help from the station attendant - and not use automatic ticket gates. I haven't tried the current style of JR Pass (since maybe 2022?), but I imagine that the exit gate would eat your seat reservation ticket, just like if you had bought the ticket in cash.