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ZWave is the most stable radio-based standard right now. It's not great, and it's not very extensible, but it's OK-ish. There's one hackable device: https://z-u

ZWave is the most stable radio-based standard right now. It's not great, and it's not very extensible, but it's OK-ish. There's one hackable device: https://z-uno.z-wave.me/technical/ https://z-uno.z-wave.me/technical/ but its SDK is not that great. Pure ZigBee is... spotty because there are no certification requirements. Matter is stuck in development hell, but is slowly getting better. And the problem with WiFi is energy efficiency (or a lack thereof) compared to ZWave/ZigBee/Thread. So far, I've tried probably most of the home radio standards. Lutron was the most reliable, but it's also super-proprietary. My next house will just have conduits with low-voltage cables running to all the light switches, so I can use something like KNX instead of the radio-based stuff.

hardwaresofton 1y ago
> And the problem with WiFi is energy efficiency (or a lack thereof) compared to ZWave/ZigBee/Thread. This is a problem I'd really like to solve the old fashioned way/I think it prevents too much building. Energy density, rechargability, etc are like CPU speed to me -- it will eventually be solved, and I can deal with replacing a device every month or swapping a rechargable battery (especially if the device can tell me it's low). I really do think it will be Thread+Wifi routers that eventually get a built-in Thread antenna that win (at least wining me over). If either ZWave or ZigBee had managed to get into the home router space, they would have won already IMO. There are probably annoying reasons they couldn't until now. > So far, I've tried probably most of the home radio standards. Lutron was the most reliable, but it's also super-proprietary. My next house will just have conduits with low-voltage cables running to all the light switches, so I can use something like KNX instead of the radio-based stuff. Thanks for sharing this and your other experience! Also TIL KNX.
- cyberax 1y ago
  > I really do think it will be Thread+Wifi routers that eventually get a built-in Thread antenna that win (at least wining me over). That actually had been the case for a while. A lot of WiFi routers had a built-in Thread (ZigBee) radio, but then nobody actually used them and the manufacturers stopped bothering with them. So now pretty much only Eero access points still have it. > Also TIL KNX. My dream is to have _actuated_ switches, that have full tactile feedback. So that the paddle will physically flip when switched remotely. I commissioned an engineering company to look into that, but apparently this is not feasible at all with the NEC and UL requirements in the US. The only way is to use low voltage wiring to the switches and then use them to control line-voltage relays. This kind of system is popular in Europe, so you might as well just go with something like KNX.
  - hardwaresofton 1y ago
    > That actually had been the case for a while. A lot of WiFi routers had a built-in Thread (ZigBee) radio, but then nobody actually used them and the manufacturers stopped bothering with them. So now pretty much only Eero access points still have it. Thanks for this context -- when I searched I only found "thread border routers" -- I couldn't find a router made by a well known brand that included thread functionality -- it always seemed to be "buy a router AND buy a thread border router". Really surprised that I missed the wave on this and wonder if it was a "we want people to buy two things" rather than no one actually using it. Maybe I just have to wait for it to come back around? Maybe the answer here is a USB powered device with an extra 2.4Ghz radio (running like.. OpenThread or whatever I need to do thread over an available antenna?) attached to the router? What I don't understand is why I just use the existing router's 2.4Ghz antenna for this? The amount of confusion in the space and inability of devices to do multiple things is really annoying, to be frank. I can only surmise the reason this stuff is not easy/obvious is profit-incentive (outside of the difficulty of designing good standards of course!). [EDIT] OK, so the antennas aren't the same, despite being the same frequency -- clearly this is to ensure speedy operation at the hardware level. So the add-on antenna would probably work if I bought some parts from mouser: https://eu.mouser.com/c/passive-components/antennas/?protocol%20-%20ant%2C%20thread%2C%20zigbee%20-%20802.15.4=802.15.4%20(ANT%2C%20Thread%2C%20Zigbee) https://eu.mouser.com/c/passive-components/antennas/?protoco... [EDIT2] Nope, more confused. Multi-protocol antennas exist. Why is this not a set-and-forget option for all the routers??? Someone clue me in to the politics/power struggle or whatever the real reason is here. And then connected + taped something to my router.
    - cyberax 1y ago
      > Really surprised that I missed the wave on this and wonder if it was a "we want people to buy two things" rather than no one actually using it. Maybe I just have to wait for it to come back around? It's worse. There are _no_ new stand-alone Thread Border Routers on the market. You might find old stock of GL.iNet routers, and I believe there were a couple of other experimental devices. If you want a robust Matter network, your best bet is to use Apple or Google devices as border routers. Or you can use a USB ZigBee stick with HomeAssistant. > [EDIT2] Nope, more confused. Multi-protocol antennas exist. Why is this not a set-and-forget option for all the routers??? No market demand, so router manufacturers just don't bother. The initial versions of Matter were a burning trash fire.
spott 1y ago
That is an expensive dev board for something like this… Here is a esp32-h2 with thread and zigbee support for $5-$12 https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMfZEsX https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMfZEsX I figure support for something like this is likely to increase faster than a $70+ board.

hardwaresofton 1y ago

> And the problem with WiFi is energy efficiency (or a lack thereof) compared to ZWave/ZigBee/Thread. This is a problem I'd really like to solve the old fashioned way/I think it prevents too much building. Energy density, rechargability, etc are like CPU speed to me -- it will eventually be solved, and I can deal with replacing a device every month or swapping a rechargable battery (especially if the device can tell me it's low). I really do think it will be Thread+Wifi routers that eventually get a built-in Thread antenna that win (at least wining me over). If either ZWave or ZigBee had managed to get into the home router space, they would have won already IMO. There are probably annoying reasons they couldn't until now. > So far, I've tried probably most of the home radio standards. Lutron was the most reliable, but it's also super-proprietary. My next house will just have conduits with low-voltage cables running to all the light switches, so I can use something like KNX instead of the radio-based stuff. Thanks for sharing this and your other experience! Also TIL KNX.

cyberax 1y ago
> I really do think it will be Thread+Wifi routers that eventually get a built-in Thread antenna that win (at least wining me over). That actually had been the case for a while. A lot of WiFi routers had a built-in Thread (ZigBee) radio, but then nobody actually used them and the manufacturers stopped bothering with them. So now pretty much only Eero access points still have it. > Also TIL KNX. My dream is to have _actuated_ switches, that have full tactile feedback. So that the paddle will physically flip when switched remotely. I commissioned an engineering company to look into that, but apparently this is not feasible at all with the NEC and UL requirements in the US. The only way is to use low voltage wiring to the switches and then use them to control line-voltage relays. This kind of system is popular in Europe, so you might as well just go with something like KNX.
- hardwaresofton 1y ago
  > That actually had been the case for a while. A lot of WiFi routers had a built-in Thread (ZigBee) radio, but then nobody actually used them and the manufacturers stopped bothering with them. So now pretty much only Eero access points still have it. Thanks for this context -- when I searched I only found "thread border routers" -- I couldn't find a router made by a well known brand that included thread functionality -- it always seemed to be "buy a router AND buy a thread border router". Really surprised that I missed the wave on this and wonder if it was a "we want people to buy two things" rather than no one actually using it. Maybe I just have to wait for it to come back around? Maybe the answer here is a USB powered device with an extra 2.4Ghz radio (running like.. OpenThread or whatever I need to do thread over an available antenna?) attached to the router? What I don't understand is why I just use the existing router's 2.4Ghz antenna for this? The amount of confusion in the space and inability of devices to do multiple things is really annoying, to be frank. I can only surmise the reason this stuff is not easy/obvious is profit-incentive (outside of the difficulty of designing good standards of course!). [EDIT] OK, so the antennas aren't the same, despite being the same frequency -- clearly this is to ensure speedy operation at the hardware level. So the add-on antenna would probably work if I bought some parts from mouser: https://eu.mouser.com/c/passive-components/antennas/?protocol%20-%20ant%2C%20thread%2C%20zigbee%20-%20802.15.4=802.15.4%20(ANT%2C%20Thread%2C%20Zigbee) https://eu.mouser.com/c/passive-components/antennas/?protoco... [EDIT2] Nope, more confused. Multi-protocol antennas exist. Why is this not a set-and-forget option for all the routers??? Someone clue me in to the politics/power struggle or whatever the real reason is here. And then connected + taped something to my router.
  - cyberax 1y ago
    > Really surprised that I missed the wave on this and wonder if it was a "we want people to buy two things" rather than no one actually using it. Maybe I just have to wait for it to come back around? It's worse. There are _no_ new stand-alone Thread Border Routers on the market. You might find old stock of GL.iNet routers, and I believe there were a couple of other experimental devices. If you want a robust Matter network, your best bet is to use Apple or Google devices as border routers. Or you can use a USB ZigBee stick with HomeAssistant. > [EDIT2] Nope, more confused. Multi-protocol antennas exist. Why is this not a set-and-forget option for all the routers??? No market demand, so router manufacturers just don't bother. The initial versions of Matter were a burning trash fire.

spott 1y ago

That is an expensive dev board for something like this… Here is a esp32-h2 with thread and zigbee support for $5-$12 https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMfZEsX https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMfZEsX I figure support for something like this is likely to increase faster than a $70+ board.