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> In my country, a prosecutor direct the police to find proofs of alleged crimes. There's a trial in Israel going against Netanyahu for his corruption. That's

> In my country, a prosecutor direct the police to find proofs of alleged crimes. There's a trial in Israel going against Netanyahu for his corruption. That's how countries work. A leader isn't above the law. However, your country can't be on trial by another country. Worse, Israel isn't a part of the ICC. It didn't sign any of the treaties and the ICC has no jurisdiction. So why is it in Israel? Because the Palestinians joined the ICC. This is pretty problematic and one sided. The judge presiding the case was from Lebanon who was firing missiles daily at Israel... Not exactly jury of its peers. > In that case, multiple one including war crime, geneva convention on prisonner of war breachs, including but not limited to rape. That's what people who just read the initial headlines and social media spin say. The evidence is very flimsy and mostly based on reporting from Hamas controlled Gaza. In terms of standards for warfare. I haven't been there and I wouldn't trust most people who have (from either side). I'm sure there were war crimes (and I'm pretty sure Hamas did far worse) and I don't want to make excuses for them. But there's a huge difference between individual action and organized genocide/ethnic cleansing which are the false claims. Here are some different takes: * https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/05/12/gaza-israel-war-hamas-attack-sank-palestinian-cause/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/05/12/gaza-israel-war-hamas-a... * https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to-stop-paying-attention-to-hamas-lies/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/05/far-past-time-to... * https://honestreporting.com/media-unquestioningly-parrot-amnesty-report-accusing-israel-of-genocide/ https://honestreporting.com/media-unquestioningly-parrot-amn... > This is not a left-wing viewpoint, this is a right of law viewpoint Law is within the borders of a country. International law is a very different thing. > (and it is _extremely_ damageable that some people conflate the two). I very much agree. Imagine someone blaming from another country taking over your country... This is literally what the ICC is trying to do to Israel, and I'm saying this as a person who despises Netanyahu with every fiber of my being. > And with all due respect, "support the centrists"? Who do you call "centrist" here? The extreme centrists? The "moderate" bourgeoisie? The military new aristocracy? The people who literally go out and demonstrate against Netanyahu and his government every day. The people who are trying to get a deal made so they can see their children again who were kidnapped from their homes by Hamas. Those people! > But you're right in a sense, because what happen when those centrist are loosing their power base and they have to choose between loosing power or catering to the violent is now history. Centrist are indeed moving to the right thanks to the pro-Palestine demonstrators. They demonstrate to a lot of Israelis that there's only one country that accepts Jews and why it's crucial to fight for it. Israelis in general look at this as: "We tried giving Palestinians a country (twice arguably more), they attacked us repeatedly." This is pushing a lot of Israelis into the scary "it's either us or them" territory.

runarberg 1y ago
If you are an expert on international law you can correct me, but I was under the impression that jurisdiction applies to where the crime is committed, not where the perpetrator resides. So when an Israeli commits a war crime in Palestine, Palestinian laws apply, and if the Palestinian courts are unwilling, or unable to prosecute said crimes, ICC steps in and takes on the case. This is no different to how Putin is being charged for crimes he is committing in Ukraine, despite Russia not being a member of the ICC. I think there is an exception if the Israeli (or Russia in the case of Putin) justice system would prosecute the crimes fairly, then the ICC passes on jurisdiction, but as we clearly see, there is no indication that that will happen. > The people who literally go out and demonstrate against Netanyahu and his government every day. That is fine and dandy, but completely irrelevant while he is not being charged for war crimes by the Israeli justice system. If he goes to prison for corruption that isn’t exactly justice for the war crimes he has ordered committed.
- tptacek 1y ago
  There is no overarching system of international law, appearances to the contrary. The signatories to the Rome statute agree to assist the ICC in investigating and prosecuting cases, which may or may not involve citizens of Rome signatory countries. The ICC isn't magic. Most of the world's population resides in non-member countries. Unlike an ordinary domestic court, the ICC cannot compel testimony; it can't even host an adversarial hearing in situations (like this one) where both parties don't agree to the premise of the ICC's legitimacy. We could get more specific about the limitations and legitimacy of the ICC, if you wanted to.
- invalidname 1y ago
  > I think there is an exception if the Israeli (or Russia in the case of Putin) justice system would prosecute the crimes fairly, then the ICC passes on jurisdiction, but as we clearly see, there is no indication that that will happen. Right now the Israeli court system is prosecuting the individual assaults from Sde Teiman (the rape claim). During the evidence stage it turns out that the allegations seem to be very overblown, there was an assault. Not rape. The problem is that it's very hart to have a properly functioning justice system when people from the extreme right are blaming you of "working with the enemy". External action and social media are causing a problem instead of focusing on specific wrongdoings. This is deeply problematic and doesn't help. > > The people who literally go out and demonstrate against Netanyahu and his government every day. > That is fine and dandy, but completely irrelevant while he is not being charged for war crimes by the Israeli justice system. If he goes to prison for corruption that isn’t exactly justice for the war crimes he has ordered committed. Because there is literally no evidence of that. The only evidence ICC brought forth is declaratory intent. Members of the government said some pretty horrible things. That is indeed awful, but not a war crime, genocide or even ethnic cleansing. After the last ceasefire, Palestinians returned to their homes disproving a large part of the ethnic cleansing allegations. By modern definitions of war in an urban area this was relatively clean. Like all western democracies Israel has separation of branches. The army is separate and even if a minister wants to perform a war crime, he can't just command it. There is a chain of command and the legitimacy of the orders is evaluated along the command chain. That means war crimes do happen, like they do in every war. Due to social media and the nature of this specific war they are far more visible (and often faked). Should they be prosecuted, sure. But focusing on that alone is problematic as it again, incentivizes the worst players and escalates the conflict. This is a political problem, not a legal problem.

runarberg 1y ago

If you are an expert on international law you can correct me, but I was under the impression that jurisdiction applies to where the crime is committed, not where the perpetrator resides. So when an Israeli commits a war crime in Palestine, Palestinian laws apply, and if the Palestinian courts are unwilling, or unable to prosecute said crimes, ICC steps in and takes on the case. This is no different to how Putin is being charged for crimes he is committing in Ukraine, despite Russia not being a member of the ICC. I think there is an exception if the Israeli (or Russia in the case of Putin) justice system would prosecute the crimes fairly, then the ICC passes on jurisdiction, but as we clearly see, there is no indication that that will happen. > The people who literally go out and demonstrate against Netanyahu and his government every day. That is fine and dandy, but completely irrelevant while he is not being charged for war crimes by the Israeli justice system. If he goes to prison for corruption that isn’t exactly justice for the war crimes he has ordered committed.

tptacek 1y ago
There is no overarching system of international law, appearances to the contrary. The signatories to the Rome statute agree to assist the ICC in investigating and prosecuting cases, which may or may not involve citizens of Rome signatory countries. The ICC isn't magic. Most of the world's population resides in non-member countries. Unlike an ordinary domestic court, the ICC cannot compel testimony; it can't even host an adversarial hearing in situations (like this one) where both parties don't agree to the premise of the ICC's legitimacy. We could get more specific about the limitations and legitimacy of the ICC, if you wanted to.
invalidname 1y ago
> I think there is an exception if the Israeli (or Russia in the case of Putin) justice system would prosecute the crimes fairly, then the ICC passes on jurisdiction, but as we clearly see, there is no indication that that will happen. Right now the Israeli court system is prosecuting the individual assaults from Sde Teiman (the rape claim). During the evidence stage it turns out that the allegations seem to be very overblown, there was an assault. Not rape. The problem is that it's very hart to have a properly functioning justice system when people from the extreme right are blaming you of "working with the enemy". External action and social media are causing a problem instead of focusing on specific wrongdoings. This is deeply problematic and doesn't help. > > The people who literally go out and demonstrate against Netanyahu and his government every day. > That is fine and dandy, but completely irrelevant while he is not being charged for war crimes by the Israeli justice system. If he goes to prison for corruption that isn’t exactly justice for the war crimes he has ordered committed. Because there is literally no evidence of that. The only evidence ICC brought forth is declaratory intent. Members of the government said some pretty horrible things. That is indeed awful, but not a war crime, genocide or even ethnic cleansing. After the last ceasefire, Palestinians returned to their homes disproving a large part of the ethnic cleansing allegations. By modern definitions of war in an urban area this was relatively clean. Like all western democracies Israel has separation of branches. The army is separate and even if a minister wants to perform a war crime, he can't just command it. There is a chain of command and the legitimacy of the orders is evaluated along the command chain. That means war crimes do happen, like they do in every war. Due to social media and the nature of this specific war they are far more visible (and often faked). Should they be prosecuted, sure. But focusing on that alone is problematic as it again, incentivizes the worst players and escalates the conflict. This is a political problem, not a legal problem.