5 ms·

Hi, I just spent 2 months interviewing and hiring candidates for 4 open (remote) eng positions at a US startup. Answering "Yes" to 1 when you don't have a green

by xp84 1y ago

Hi, I just spent 2 months interviewing and hiring candidates for 4 open (remote) eng positions at a US startup. Answering "Yes" to 1 when you don't have a green card or US citizenship would be a way to guarantee that I would rescind your offer and make a mental note to never trust you. I don't think you should do that. We actually hired some Canadian talent -- we just used an EOR in Canada. The EOR cost us about $600 a month per head as their cut, but it was worth it to get the excellent developers we have through that deal. The reason why some/many firms would filter out anyone saying NO to (1) is that getting a visa sponsored requires significant work of a specialized nature and our company certainly is not equipped to do that because we don't have people who have the time and skills to deal with the insane demands of our government to obtain the necessary document (This is not a new or partisan issue btw, I remember losing a great developer in the Obama years due to the feds giving her the run-around).

Plasmoid 1y ago
> Answering "Yes" to 1 when you don't have a green card or US citizenship would be a way to guarantee that I would rescind your offer This might actually violate EEOC. You would discriminating on the basis on nationality. The question that was asked was "Are you legally authorized to work in the US?" and Canadian have a limited legal right to work in the US under NAFTA.
- YZF 1y ago
  They're not allowed to work unless they have TN status. I agree with the OP that replying YES is dishonest.
- oldpersonintx 1y ago
  [dead]
- _bin_ 1y ago
  The question is usually understood to mean "on an ongoing basis" and it's essentially lying. The system may not be correct or kind, but I'd have a lot of trouble trusting someone whose response to "the system isn't fair" is "I'll lie to get around it and achieve the outcome I believe is right" enough to hire him.
  - Plasmoid 1y ago
    I could see that, but given that jobs are all at-will it's hard to argue the employer would have any damages for a contract that can be terminated with literally zero notice.
    - _bin_ 1y ago
      Most employment is at will, but salaried employees usually have specified severance in case of termination for convenience. Misrepresenting qualifications does in fact create a case for damages unless the employee is literally perfect. But civil aside, and ethics aside, it is fraud and could conceivably be prosecuted accordingly.
  - AngryData 1y ago
    I personally wouldn't have a lot of faith in the abilities and judgement of someone who doesn't leverage an unfair system to their advantage despite there being basically no downsides to doing so unless im hiring a middle manager to sort through excessive bureaucratic bloat.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  > This might actually violate EEOC. You would discriminating on the basis on nationality. This is laughably incorrect, and a good example of why you should get legal advice from lawyers instead of Internet forums.
  - karthikb 1y ago
    EEOC is based on national origin not nationality.
YZF 1y ago
TN is not a visa and all you need to get this status is a job offer. There's really no work of any specialized nature but some companies do get legal advice to help streamline the process and get better outcomes like reducing the probability that the person would be denied. (EDIT: it is sometimes referred to a visa and sometimes as a status but at any rate as someone who had TN status with two different US startups there was very little process around it)
- xp84 1y ago
  Brief reading of reddit posts by people who actually did this almost always included that the company's lawyers wrote them letters and prepared packets of materials for them to provide CBP. We don't have any lawyers. We're simply not employing people who don't have green cards. We don't have time or money to play games with the government. One important thing in seeking TN status is that the title of degree matters immensely to your employability, which goes entirely against what I stand for, as if you have a degree in economics or no degree but do a great job of writing code, I'd want to hire you. The law contains vagaries and there is a "memo" which suggests that they use common sense, but it's all up to a random border guard who might not know any of that to interpret everything. Anyway, you're not automatically legally allowed to work in the US and lying about it won't help. We can agree to disagree on whether we "should" deal with all that stuff or if we're missing out, but lying to get halfway in the door is the worst way to change an employer's mind, especially in this economy when plenty of domestic candidates are available.
  - YZF 1y ago
    I agree with you about the dishonesty of saying yes (as I replied in another comment). That said this is a choice you're making from what sounds like more religious reasons. Your company and your choice but it's not hard to employ TNs in a startup (and I know because I had TN status with two startups so I'm a little ahead of "brief reading of reddit posts"). TN status can also be applied for in advance by the way, doesn't have to be at the border. This wasn't an option when I had TN status but now it is.
    - 1y ago
jsbg 1y ago
> Answering "Yes" to 1 when you don't have a green card or US citizenship would be a way to guarantee that I would rescind your offer and make a mental note to never trust you. I wouldn't trust you either. The question is ambiguous when it comes to NAFTA and applicants are worried about being filtered out despite not needing visa sponsorship. TN is not a visa it's a status based on a free trade agreement.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  Ugh, arguing over the simple meaning of factual statements on the Internet is my biggest pet peeve. If you don't have an appropriate work visa, permanent residency or citizenship, and you answer yes to the question of "Are you legally authorized to work in the US", you are just a liar, plain and simple.
  - jsbg 1y ago
    > If you don't have an appropriate work visa, permanent residency or citizenship Well, TN is none of those, and here I am authorized to work legally. If I apply for another job elsewhere, the honest answer to this question is yes, despite the fact that I will be required to get a new TN.
    - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
      Why do you think the TN is not a work visa? The US State Department website literally refers to it as "the TN visa", https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employment/visas-canadian-mexican-usmca-professional-workers.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employme... : > The nonimmigrant USMCA Professional (TN) visa allows eligible citizens of Canada and Mexico to work in the United States as USMCA professionals in prearranged professional level business activities for U.S. or foreign employers.
      - rhines 1y ago
        When I looked at working in America several years ago, many people I spoke to and people commenting about it on Reddit/HN/Blind emphasized that it's TN status, not TN visa. They even suggested that calling it a visa when trying to enter the US could get your application rejected. I'm not sure if things have changed since then but if so there's probably lots of people who heard that same advice in the past and haven't learned the updated info.
jgilias 1y ago
If those are remote positions, why do you care about any of this at all? Make it clear that the applicant needs to handle taxation in their home country themselves, and that’s that. I know many software engineers working remotely for companies outside their home country. One would typically set up an LLC or equivalent, and be employed by that. Any options agreement would be with the private individual to not mess up the cap table.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
bcoates 1y ago
Wow, you're real proud of not understanding what a TN visa is or how to do the most basic of HR functions. You’re doing anyone you don't give a job a favor.
appleaday1 1y ago
you should look at /r/tnvisa sub, dont get fooled and pay for money when you dont have too >.>

by xp84 1y ago

Plasmoid 1y ago

> Answering "Yes" to 1 when you don't have a green card or US citizenship would be a way to guarantee that I would rescind your offer This might actually violate EEOC. You would discriminating on the basis on nationality. The question that was asked was "Are you legally authorized to work in the US?" and Canadian have a limited legal right to work in the US under NAFTA.

YZF 1y ago
They're not allowed to work unless they have TN status. I agree with the OP that replying YES is dishonest.
oldpersonintx 1y ago
[dead]
_bin_ 1y ago
The question is usually understood to mean "on an ongoing basis" and it's essentially lying. The system may not be correct or kind, but I'd have a lot of trouble trusting someone whose response to "the system isn't fair" is "I'll lie to get around it and achieve the outcome I believe is right" enough to hire him.
- Plasmoid 1y ago
  I could see that, but given that jobs are all at-will it's hard to argue the employer would have any damages for a contract that can be terminated with literally zero notice.
  - _bin_ 1y ago
    Most employment is at will, but salaried employees usually have specified severance in case of termination for convenience. Misrepresenting qualifications does in fact create a case for damages unless the employee is literally perfect. But civil aside, and ethics aside, it is fraud and could conceivably be prosecuted accordingly.
- AngryData 1y ago
  I personally wouldn't have a lot of faith in the abilities and judgement of someone who doesn't leverage an unfair system to their advantage despite there being basically no downsides to doing so unless im hiring a middle manager to sort through excessive bureaucratic bloat.
hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
> This might actually violate EEOC. You would discriminating on the basis on nationality. This is laughably incorrect, and a good example of why you should get legal advice from lawyers instead of Internet forums.
- karthikb 1y ago
  EEOC is based on national origin not nationality.

YZF 1y ago

TN is not a visa and all you need to get this status is a job offer. There's really no work of any specialized nature but some companies do get legal advice to help streamline the process and get better outcomes like reducing the probability that the person would be denied. (EDIT: it is sometimes referred to a visa and sometimes as a status but at any rate as someone who had TN status with two different US startups there was very little process around it)

xp84 1y ago
Brief reading of reddit posts by people who actually did this almost always included that the company's lawyers wrote them letters and prepared packets of materials for them to provide CBP. We don't have any lawyers. We're simply not employing people who don't have green cards. We don't have time or money to play games with the government. One important thing in seeking TN status is that the title of degree matters immensely to your employability, which goes entirely against what I stand for, as if you have a degree in economics or no degree but do a great job of writing code, I'd want to hire you. The law contains vagaries and there is a "memo" which suggests that they use common sense, but it's all up to a random border guard who might not know any of that to interpret everything. Anyway, you're not automatically legally allowed to work in the US and lying about it won't help. We can agree to disagree on whether we "should" deal with all that stuff or if we're missing out, but lying to get halfway in the door is the worst way to change an employer's mind, especially in this economy when plenty of domestic candidates are available.
- YZF 1y ago
  I agree with you about the dishonesty of saying yes (as I replied in another comment). That said this is a choice you're making from what sounds like more religious reasons. Your company and your choice but it's not hard to employ TNs in a startup (and I know because I had TN status with two startups so I'm a little ahead of "brief reading of reddit posts"). TN status can also be applied for in advance by the way, doesn't have to be at the border. This wasn't an option when I had TN status but now it is.
  - 1y ago

jsbg 1y ago

> Answering "Yes" to 1 when you don't have a green card or US citizenship would be a way to guarantee that I would rescind your offer and make a mental note to never trust you. I wouldn't trust you either. The question is ambiguous when it comes to NAFTA and applicants are worried about being filtered out despite not needing visa sponsorship. TN is not a visa it's a status based on a free trade agreement.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
Ugh, arguing over the simple meaning of factual statements on the Internet is my biggest pet peeve. If you don't have an appropriate work visa, permanent residency or citizenship, and you answer yes to the question of "Are you legally authorized to work in the US", you are just a liar, plain and simple.
- jsbg 1y ago
  > If you don't have an appropriate work visa, permanent residency or citizenship Well, TN is none of those, and here I am authorized to work legally. If I apply for another job elsewhere, the honest answer to this question is yes, despite the fact that I will be required to get a new TN.
  - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
    Why do you think the TN is not a work visa? The US State Department website literally refers to it as "the TN visa", https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employment/visas-canadian-mexican-usmca-professional-workers.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employme... : > The nonimmigrant USMCA Professional (TN) visa allows eligible citizens of Canada and Mexico to work in the United States as USMCA professionals in prearranged professional level business activities for U.S. or foreign employers.
    - rhines 1y ago
      When I looked at working in America several years ago, many people I spoke to and people commenting about it on Reddit/HN/Blind emphasized that it's TN status, not TN visa. They even suggested that calling it a visa when trying to enter the US could get your application rejected. I'm not sure if things have changed since then but if so there's probably lots of people who heard that same advice in the past and haven't learned the updated info.

jgilias 1y ago

If those are remote positions, why do you care about any of this at all? Make it clear that the applicant needs to handle taxation in their home country themselves, and that’s that. I know many software engineers working remotely for companies outside their home country. One would typically set up an LLC or equivalent, and be employed by that. Any options agreement would be with the private individual to not mess up the cap table.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

bcoates 1y ago

Wow, you're real proud of not understanding what a TN visa is or how to do the most basic of HR functions. You’re doing anyone you don't give a job a favor.

appleaday1 1y ago

you should look at /r/tnvisa sub, dont get fooled and pay for money when you dont have too >.>