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But you’ve left out part of the narrative: Developer pushes an App update which purposefully violates the TOS, expecting rejection- having planned in advance to

by napkin 1y ago

But you’ve left out part of the narrative: Developer pushes an App update which purposefully violates the TOS, expecting rejection- having planned in advance to kick off an expensive PR campaign and legal battle. I don’t deny Apple’s pettiness… Nonetheless, can you provide a different example of why devs are afraid of publicly criticizing Apple?

benoau 1y ago
And you've left out part of the narrative: the terms that Epic broke were illegal in the state of California. Hooli's contract is thus invalid. As for different reason, how about this official policy from ~2015: > If your App is rejected, we have a Review Board that you can appeal to. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps. https://web.archive.org/web/20150411105225/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150411105225/https://developer...
- napkin 1y ago
  Yeah, not arguing the legal specifics. It’s good for Apple to be challenged in court. But Epic did go out of their way to ‘trash’ Apple in the press. For this and other reasons I can’t generally relate to Epic. (e.g. targeting kids with microtransactions, burning piles of money on Epic Games exclusives.) I would also not want to do business with Epic
  - benoau 1y ago
    Apple is the primary beneficiary by far of games like Fortnite because they allow and tax them in aggregate, even without Fortnite they offer thousands of games for kids to spend a grand or ten in. The legality of the tactics employed by the gaming industry, that can only occur with the platforms complicity, are being challenged in Europe which is hopefully going to end a lot of these practices and derail both Tims grifting off children and cultivated addicts. https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer-game-purchases https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer...
  - jillyboel3 1y ago
    > I would also not want to do business with Epic So don't put yourself in the position where you have to do business with Epic, like forcing them to use your store to get software on the platform over a billion users use. Apple could easily just do what various courts have ordered them to do: Open up the ecosystem and allow anyone to distribute apps. This has the added benefit of allowing apple to stop doing business with the entities they don't like, because they are no longer involving themselves in a transaction between the user and the business the user has chosen. It will also save their executives from a prison sentence if they keep this up.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
arccy 1y ago
a successful PR campaign given now we have court rulings that show apple is an abusive company. abiding by apple's abusive TOS won't improve developers' situations, you have to stand up to them.
- lasdp 1y ago
  What's abusive TOS? Aren't EPIC TOS abusive where the payments to EPIC are non refundable in many cases or that you don't own your account or that your account can be terminated any second without a notice? Isn't it a free market where if you don't like TOS you just don't use the product?
coldpie 1y ago
Yeah, there's no good guys in this fight. Apple may be behaving badly, but Epic broke the terms they agreed to, tried to use the courts to force Apple to change their App Store business model, and even kicked off a public PR campaign trashing Apple... and now they're whining because Apple is not treating them nicely after all that? You went nuclear on Apple, Epic. That's not going to make them interested in having you as a business partner.
- jillyboel 1y ago
  Shrug. They can open up the apple ecosystem so you don't need their store and then they can refuse to do business. Apple put themselves in the position that they have to do business with entities they don't approve of, thankfully the courts are reminding them of this. Soon one or more of the apple execs will wind up in prison.
  - coldpie 1y ago
    Yeah, though Epic put themselves in the position of having the gatekeeper of an important part of their business want nothing to do with them, and now they're being whiny babies about it. Both parties suck here.
    - jillyboel3 1y ago
      No, apple is clearly the evil one. They are bullying many, many, many other companies and individiuals in a similar, and often even worse, fashion. Those don't speak up because they're afraid of Apple's wrath. Thankfully Epic did have the balls to stand up, and now various various legal entities are forcing apple to make changes that benefit everyone (except apple).
      - coldpie 1y ago
        These are billion-dollar companies using the courts to fight over who gets a bigger slice of the pie. They are not your friends or allies.
ApolloFortyNine 1y ago
>I don’t deny Apple’s pettiness… Nonetheless, can you provide a different example of why devs are afraid of publicly criticizing Apple? Every subscription service should have a banner on their pages saying signing up through iOS takes 30%. Many just disabled signing up. Of course maybe this isn't the best example since Apple actually made it against their rules to tell users it'd be cheaper to purchase on their site. Apple's rules undeniably cost end users money. Epic proved it by taking some of that 30% fee and giving it back to the consumer (you got more Fortnite credits buying on Epic store instead of Apple store). Why people try to defend Apple I'll never understand, my guess is some people who own an iPhone have decided that's 'their team' and who wants to see their team lose? But I'm not sure.
- jillyboel3 1y ago
  > Why people try to defend Apple I'll never understand, my guess is some people who own an iPhone have decided that's 'their team' and who wants to see their team lose It's this. Apple somehow managed to cultivate cult-like behavior in their users, which I've also never understood.
  - kjreact 1y ago
    Because everyone who likes how Apple has made it easy for users to manage their subscriptions and enjoy the overall user friendliness of their products we are thus cultists who just blindly do as we’re told. Maybe some people don’t agree with your views; that doesn’t make them cult followers for having a different opinion. Edit: fuck I just got trolled. According to jillyboel profile we are all just fascists. And dang is preventing him from spamming his trolls on HN.
    - jillyboel3 1y ago
      if 3 posts every hour before getting rate limited is spamming sure
    - ApolloFortyNine 1y ago
      There's no law against you overpaying Apple when you could get more value by going off app. If you want to spend $14 for something that's $10 on Epics website, your welcome to do so. Epic will still get their $10, and you can gift Apple $4 for making it easy to cancel your future subscriptions.
jemmyw 1y ago
They couldn't start the legal battle without doing this. They needed to get solid legal standing. So yes, they planned it, but they couldn't easily challenge Apple without getting the rejection. Your suggestion is that they sit on the sidelines and complain about the situation. That's what plenty of people have done, and it makes no difference. I'm not a fan of Epic, I don't play their games. They did all this for their own benefit. But it's probably a good thing overall.

by napkin 1y ago

benoau 1y ago

And you've left out part of the narrative: the terms that Epic broke were illegal in the state of California. Hooli's contract is thus invalid. As for different reason, how about this official policy from ~2015: > If your App is rejected, we have a Review Board that you can appeal to. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps. https://web.archive.org/web/20150411105225/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20150411105225/https://developer...

napkin 1y ago
Yeah, not arguing the legal specifics. It’s good for Apple to be challenged in court. But Epic did go out of their way to ‘trash’ Apple in the press. For this and other reasons I can’t generally relate to Epic. (e.g. targeting kids with microtransactions, burning piles of money on Epic Games exclusives.) I would also not want to do business with Epic
- benoau 1y ago
  Apple is the primary beneficiary by far of games like Fortnite because they allow and tax them in aggregate, even without Fortnite they offer thousands of games for kids to spend a grand or ten in. The legality of the tactics employed by the gaming industry, that can only occur with the platforms complicity, are being challenged in Europe which is hopefully going to end a lot of these practices and derail both Tims grifting off children and cultivated addicts. https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer-game-purchases https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer...
- jillyboel3 1y ago
  > I would also not want to do business with Epic So don't put yourself in the position where you have to do business with Epic, like forcing them to use your store to get software on the platform over a billion users use. Apple could easily just do what various courts have ordered them to do: Open up the ecosystem and allow anyone to distribute apps. This has the added benefit of allowing apple to stop doing business with the entities they don't like, because they are no longer involving themselves in a transaction between the user and the business the user has chosen. It will also save their executives from a prison sentence if they keep this up.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

arccy 1y ago

a successful PR campaign given now we have court rulings that show apple is an abusive company. abiding by apple's abusive TOS won't improve developers' situations, you have to stand up to them.

lasdp 1y ago
What's abusive TOS? Aren't EPIC TOS abusive where the payments to EPIC are non refundable in many cases or that you don't own your account or that your account can be terminated any second without a notice? Isn't it a free market where if you don't like TOS you just don't use the product?

coldpie 1y ago

Yeah, there's no good guys in this fight. Apple may be behaving badly, but Epic broke the terms they agreed to, tried to use the courts to force Apple to change their App Store business model, and even kicked off a public PR campaign trashing Apple... and now they're whining because Apple is not treating them nicely after all that? You went nuclear on Apple, Epic. That's not going to make them interested in having you as a business partner.

jillyboel 1y ago
Shrug. They can open up the apple ecosystem so you don't need their store and then they can refuse to do business. Apple put themselves in the position that they have to do business with entities they don't approve of, thankfully the courts are reminding them of this. Soon one or more of the apple execs will wind up in prison.
- coldpie 1y ago
  Yeah, though Epic put themselves in the position of having the gatekeeper of an important part of their business want nothing to do with them, and now they're being whiny babies about it. Both parties suck here.
  - jillyboel3 1y ago
    No, apple is clearly the evil one. They are bullying many, many, many other companies and individiuals in a similar, and often even worse, fashion. Those don't speak up because they're afraid of Apple's wrath. Thankfully Epic did have the balls to stand up, and now various various legal entities are forcing apple to make changes that benefit everyone (except apple).
    - coldpie 1y ago
      These are billion-dollar companies using the courts to fight over who gets a bigger slice of the pie. They are not your friends or allies.

ApolloFortyNine 1y ago

>I don’t deny Apple’s pettiness… Nonetheless, can you provide a different example of why devs are afraid of publicly criticizing Apple? Every subscription service should have a banner on their pages saying signing up through iOS takes 30%. Many just disabled signing up. Of course maybe this isn't the best example since Apple actually made it against their rules to tell users it'd be cheaper to purchase on their site. Apple's rules undeniably cost end users money. Epic proved it by taking some of that 30% fee and giving it back to the consumer (you got more Fortnite credits buying on Epic store instead of Apple store). Why people try to defend Apple I'll never understand, my guess is some people who own an iPhone have decided that's 'their team' and who wants to see their team lose? But I'm not sure.

jillyboel3 1y ago
> Why people try to defend Apple I'll never understand, my guess is some people who own an iPhone have decided that's 'their team' and who wants to see their team lose It's this. Apple somehow managed to cultivate cult-like behavior in their users, which I've also never understood.
- kjreact 1y ago
  Because everyone who likes how Apple has made it easy for users to manage their subscriptions and enjoy the overall user friendliness of their products we are thus cultists who just blindly do as we’re told. Maybe some people don’t agree with your views; that doesn’t make them cult followers for having a different opinion. Edit: fuck I just got trolled. According to jillyboel profile we are all just fascists. And dang is preventing him from spamming his trolls on HN.
  - jillyboel3 1y ago
    if 3 posts every hour before getting rate limited is spamming sure
  - ApolloFortyNine 1y ago
    There's no law against you overpaying Apple when you could get more value by going off app. If you want to spend $14 for something that's $10 on Epics website, your welcome to do so. Epic will still get their $10, and you can gift Apple $4 for making it easy to cancel your future subscriptions.

jemmyw 1y ago

They couldn't start the legal battle without doing this. They needed to get solid legal standing. So yes, they planned it, but they couldn't easily challenge Apple without getting the rejection. Your suggestion is that they sit on the sidelines and complain about the situation. That's what plenty of people have done, and it makes no difference. I'm not a fan of Epic, I don't play their games. They did all this for their own benefit. But it's probably a good thing overall.