4 ms·

If we create dedicated tracks for these buses we could make them go even faster, and automating them would be so much simpler: you wouldn't even need steering!

by gryfft 1y ago

If we create dedicated tracks for these buses we could make them go even faster, and automating them would be so much simpler: you wouldn't even need steering! Someone should look into this.

allan_s 1y ago
like trolleys/tramways ?
- shmeeed 1y ago
  I suppose the /s was implicit
dvdkon 1y ago
Sure, I'd settle for self-driving trams, but it doesn't seem like we're even close to self-driving trains, and they encounter far fewer pedestrians. Self-driving metro trains are here, though, but those are way more expensive to build.
- Fricken 1y ago
  The Vancouver Skytrain has been fully autonomous since it opened in 1986.
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    That's fully-segregated, though, right? That's a far easier problem than a tram, which typically has to interact with pedestrians and traffic. That's about the easiest type of transport to automate.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      Fine, fine, you've sold me. We'll grade-separate them too.
      - Gud 1y ago
        Actually that kind of sucks. Much nicer when it’s easy to step on/step off.
Oarch 1y ago
So much easier to break the system. One inconsiderate parker later and the whole tram - nay! The entire line must halt operations.
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  Just put a cow catcher on the front and keep moving
- rsynnott 1y ago
  In practice, it's fairly rare that this actually happens.
  - reaperducer 1y ago
    In practice, it's fairly rare that this actually happens. Put a trendy restaurant next to the tracks, and watch the trains back up as multiple Uber Eats drivers park on the tracks to pick up food. Happens every day where I live. The city won't do anything about it because most of the local politicians hate the trains.
- RealStickman_ 1y ago
  Remove parking spaces next to tram tracks and increase fines
tonmoy 1y ago
And we can make them environmentally friendly by having them run on electricity that is constantly supplied by overhead power lines, alleviating the need for heavy batteries. I think we are onto something here
- Voultapher 1y ago
  Seeing this thread pains me. I recall reading the Foreigner series by C. J. Cherryh and in it they had an alien politician mention cars in passing, stating that it would be stupid to give their citizens this selfish way of transportation and rather invested in train infrastructure. And boy does it seem stupid looking back. Something like 30% by area of US cities are taken up by parking space and it get's so much worse once think about what a city would look like if built for people and not cars.
lowdownbutter 1y ago
Yes the AI would be much easier to train.
yread 1y ago
Trams here in Amsterdam are already the deadliest vehicle for pedestrians and cyclists no need to make it worse
- btreecat 1y ago
  > Trams here in Amsterdam are already the deadliest vehicle for pedestrians and cyclists no need to make it worse Where are you seeing this supporting data?
  - gryfft 1y ago
    The data I can find doesn't support the assertion. > In the period between 2019 and 2022, 1,199 cyclists were killed in traffic accidents, with 42 percent of these accidents being caused by collisions with a passenger car or van. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/15/684-road-traffic-deaths-in-2023 https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/15/684-road-traffic-death...
    - yread 1y ago
      Maybe CBS counts trams as "passenger cars"? There isn't any other category where they would fit. This article states there were 5 deaths caused by tram in 2022 (out of 15 total) https://openresearch.amsterdam/nl/media/inline/2024/2/12/rapport_move_gemeente_amsterdam_25_jan_2024.pdf https://openresearch.amsterdam/nl/media/inline/2024/2/12/rap... Here is says that indeed cbs doesn't track it and that there were 21 deaths per year caused by trams, buses and trains, with 57% of those pedestrian or cyclist https://swov.nl/nl/fact/openbaar-vervoer-hoeveel-slachtoffers-vallen-er-ongevallen-met-het-ov https://swov.nl/nl/fact/openbaar-vervoer-hoeveel-slachtoffer... this ad-article "Jaarlijks worden er om en nabij 150 personen behandeld in een ziekenhuis na een aanrijding met een tram en komen er zelfs 40 personen te overlijden na een tramongeval." - I think what they mean is 40 people in a decade? https://letselschadekompas.nl/tram-ongeluk-amsterdam/ https://letselschadekompas.nl/tram-ongeluk-amsterdam/ and here are some news: https://www.at5.nl/nieuws/227944/toerist-19-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-tram-op-martelaarsgracht https://www.at5.nl/nieuws/227944/toerist-19-overleden-na-aan... https://www.dewestkrant.nl/dodelijk-slachtoffer-tramongeval-29-jarige-amsterdammer/ https://www.dewestkrant.nl/dodelijk-slachtoffer-tramongeval-... https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2265358/fietser-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-tram.html https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2265358/fietser-overleden-na-aa... https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/165946/voetganger-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-tram-in-slotermeer https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/165946/voetganger-overleden-na-... https://www.bd.nl/binnenland/slachtoffer-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-rotterdamse-tram-persoon-lag-urenlang-onder-tramstel~adb727f4/ https://www.bd.nl/binnenland/slachtoffer-overleden-na-aanrij...
tzs 1y ago
In urban areas isn’t the speed limit determined by the need to deal with pedestrians and other traffic? If your hypothetical tracked buses are going to go faster than regular buses and cars there will need to be some sort of isolation of them, such as elevated tracks or underground tracks. That raises the cost significantly. You probably will only be able to afford this on a few routes that are heavily travelled and that are expected to remain heavily travelled for decades. That will probable leave a lot of your city far enough from a tracked buses stop that many won’t be within reasonable walking distance so you are still going to need some form of public transit, such as regular buses.

by gryfft 1y ago

If we create dedicated tracks for these buses we could make them go even faster, and automating them would be so much simpler: you wouldn't even need steering! Someone should look into this.

allan_s 1y ago

like trolleys/tramways ?

shmeeed 1y ago
I suppose the /s was implicit

dvdkon 1y ago

Sure, I'd settle for self-driving trams, but it doesn't seem like we're even close to self-driving trains, and they encounter far fewer pedestrians. Self-driving metro trains are here, though, but those are way more expensive to build.

Fricken 1y ago
The Vancouver Skytrain has been fully autonomous since it opened in 1986.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  That's fully-segregated, though, right? That's a far easier problem than a tram, which typically has to interact with pedestrians and traffic. That's about the easiest type of transport to automate.
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    Fine, fine, you've sold me. We'll grade-separate them too.
    - Gud 1y ago
      Actually that kind of sucks. Much nicer when it’s easy to step on/step off.

Oarch 1y ago

So much easier to break the system. One inconsiderate parker later and the whole tram - nay! The entire line must halt operations.

paulryanrogers 1y ago
Just put a cow catcher on the front and keep moving
rsynnott 1y ago
In practice, it's fairly rare that this actually happens.
- reaperducer 1y ago
  In practice, it's fairly rare that this actually happens. Put a trendy restaurant next to the tracks, and watch the trains back up as multiple Uber Eats drivers park on the tracks to pick up food. Happens every day where I live. The city won't do anything about it because most of the local politicians hate the trains.
RealStickman_ 1y ago
Remove parking spaces next to tram tracks and increase fines

tonmoy 1y ago

And we can make them environmentally friendly by having them run on electricity that is constantly supplied by overhead power lines, alleviating the need for heavy batteries. I think we are onto something here

Voultapher 1y ago
Seeing this thread pains me. I recall reading the Foreigner series by C. J. Cherryh and in it they had an alien politician mention cars in passing, stating that it would be stupid to give their citizens this selfish way of transportation and rather invested in train infrastructure. And boy does it seem stupid looking back. Something like 30% by area of US cities are taken up by parking space and it get's so much worse once think about what a city would look like if built for people and not cars.

lowdownbutter 1y ago

Yes the AI would be much easier to train.

yread 1y ago

Trams here in Amsterdam are already the deadliest vehicle for pedestrians and cyclists no need to make it worse

btreecat 1y ago
> Trams here in Amsterdam are already the deadliest vehicle for pedestrians and cyclists no need to make it worse Where are you seeing this supporting data?
- gryfft 1y ago
  The data I can find doesn't support the assertion. > In the period between 2019 and 2022, 1,199 cyclists were killed in traffic accidents, with 42 percent of these accidents being caused by collisions with a passenger car or van. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/15/684-road-traffic-deaths-in-2023 https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2024/15/684-road-traffic-death...
  - yread 1y ago
    Maybe CBS counts trams as "passenger cars"? There isn't any other category where they would fit. This article states there were 5 deaths caused by tram in 2022 (out of 15 total) https://openresearch.amsterdam/nl/media/inline/2024/2/12/rapport_move_gemeente_amsterdam_25_jan_2024.pdf https://openresearch.amsterdam/nl/media/inline/2024/2/12/rap... Here is says that indeed cbs doesn't track it and that there were 21 deaths per year caused by trams, buses and trains, with 57% of those pedestrian or cyclist https://swov.nl/nl/fact/openbaar-vervoer-hoeveel-slachtoffers-vallen-er-ongevallen-met-het-ov https://swov.nl/nl/fact/openbaar-vervoer-hoeveel-slachtoffer... this ad-article "Jaarlijks worden er om en nabij 150 personen behandeld in een ziekenhuis na een aanrijding met een tram en komen er zelfs 40 personen te overlijden na een tramongeval." - I think what they mean is 40 people in a decade? https://letselschadekompas.nl/tram-ongeluk-amsterdam/ https://letselschadekompas.nl/tram-ongeluk-amsterdam/ and here are some news: https://www.at5.nl/nieuws/227944/toerist-19-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-tram-op-martelaarsgracht https://www.at5.nl/nieuws/227944/toerist-19-overleden-na-aan... https://www.dewestkrant.nl/dodelijk-slachtoffer-tramongeval-29-jarige-amsterdammer/ https://www.dewestkrant.nl/dodelijk-slachtoffer-tramongeval-... https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2265358/fietser-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-tram.html https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2265358/fietser-overleden-na-aa... https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/165946/voetganger-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-tram-in-slotermeer https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/165946/voetganger-overleden-na-... https://www.bd.nl/binnenland/slachtoffer-overleden-na-aanrijding-met-rotterdamse-tram-persoon-lag-urenlang-onder-tramstel~adb727f4/ https://www.bd.nl/binnenland/slachtoffer-overleden-na-aanrij...

tzs 1y ago

In urban areas isn’t the speed limit determined by the need to deal with pedestrians and other traffic? If your hypothetical tracked buses are going to go faster than regular buses and cars there will need to be some sort of isolation of them, such as elevated tracks or underground tracks. That raises the cost significantly. You probably will only be able to afford this on a few routes that are heavily travelled and that are expected to remain heavily travelled for decades. That will probable leave a lot of your city far enough from a tracked buses stop that many won’t be within reasonable walking distance so you are still going to need some form of public transit, such as regular buses.