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> No one lamented the advent of calculators. It's interesting that he lists a number of historical precedents, like the invention of the calculator, or the mec

> No one lamented the advent of calculators. It's interesting that he lists a number of historical precedents, like the invention of the calculator, or the mechanization of labor in the industrial revolution, and explains how they are different than AI. With the exception of chess, I think he's wrong about the effects of all of them. For instance, people did lament the invention of calculators, saying it would harm kids' ability to do mental arithmetic. And it did. People also said that GPS navigation would hurt people's ability to use a map, or create one in their heads. And I'm old enough to say: it absolutely did. People (in aggregate) are worse at those skills now. Fortunately for us, we replaced those skills with technology that allowed us to do something analogous to them, but faster and more easily. The question is: what are the second- and third-order effects of losing those skills, or not learning them in the first place? Is it crazy to think that not memorizing things because we can access printed (and digitized) material might have larger, unforeseen consequences on our brains, or our societies? Could mechanizing menial labor have induced some change in how we think, or have any long term effects on our bodies? I think we're seeing—and will continue to see—that there are knock-on effects to technology that we can't predict beforehand. We think we're making a simple exchange of an old, difficult skill for a new, easy one, but we're actually causing a more far-reaching cascade of changes that nobody can warn us of in advance. And, to me, the even scarier thing is that those of us who don't live through those changes will have no basis for comparison to know whether the trade-off was worth it.

drewcoo 1y ago
Calculators also ruined the ability to understand and use logarithms (slide rules).
aminsadeghi 1y ago
I'd argue that using calculators instead of learning how addition is done does hurt kids' ability to do mental arithmetic. It's an experiment we haven't tried, or at least not in places I've lived in. Sure, once you get how addition is done, feel free to free up your mind skipping 2+ digit arithmetics using a calculator. Same as: sure, once you learned what caching is and implement a small prototype, feel free to ask Claude to implement caching for you.
etblg 1y ago
> For instance, people did lament the invention of calculators, saying it would harm kids' ability to do mental arithmetic. And it did. > Fortunately for us, we replaced those skills with technology that allowed us to do something analogous to them, but faster and more easily. Don't kids still learn to do arithmetic in their head first? I haven't been in a school in decades but I remember doing it all sans calculator in elementary school. When you move on up to higher level stuff you end up using a calculator, but it's not like we skip that step entirely, do we?
- aminsadeghi 1y ago
  Exactly! Steph Ango (Obsidian creator) has said it well in his "Don't delegate understanding" essay: https://stephango.com/understand https://stephango.com/understand
- karaterobot 1y ago
  I bet they do, but it's not a question of learning the skills in school. It's more about using those skills, which I don't think is as common today.
threatofrain 1y ago
I wonder if in the place of many lower level skills one is then freed to explore higher order skills. We now have very fancy calculators, such as in the form of tools like notebooks that connect to data sources and run transformations and show visualizations.
- karaterobot 1y ago
  Looking around, I don't see too many people exploring higher order skills using that spare brain power. I think at the margins, you've probably got really smart scientists/engineers/philosophers doing that, but what does the ordinary person in the street do? This is the grumpiest thing I'll say today, but it seems like they just scroll social media on their phones while streaming media plays in the background.
jrapdx3 1y ago
> "People also said that GPS navigation would hurt people's ability to use a map, or create one in their heads. And I'm old enough to say: it absolutely did." Thing is some people never were good at reading/using maps, much less creating them. Even with GPS at hand I still prefer seeing a map to know where I'm going. Anyway, retaining at least a modicum of "classic" skills is beneficial. After all, GPS isn't infallible. As with all complex technologies, possibility of failure warrants having alternatives. I was recently on a cruise, someone asked the ship's navigator whether officers were trained on using old instruments like the sextant. He replied that they were, and continue to drill on their use. Sure, the ship has up-to-date equipment, but knowing the "old ways" is potentially still relevant. > "The question is: what are the second- and third-order effects of losing those skills, or not learning them in the first place?" Naturally, old skills fade with advent of newer methods. There's a shortage of ferriers, people who shoe horses. Very few people are being apprenticed in the trade. (Though I'm told the work pays very well.) Owning horses is a niche but robust interest, so ferriers have full workloads, the occupation is not disappearing. Point is that in real-world terms losing skills diminishes the richness of human lives because there's value in all constructive human endeavor. Similarly an individual's life is enriched by acquiring fundamental skills even if seldom used. Of course we have to parcel our time wisely, but sparing a bit of time to exercise basic capabilities is probably a good idea.
- ayrtondesozzla 1y ago
  I recommend using Anki (or whatever software does the job) to commit everyday, normal stuff that comes up to long-term memory. Anki has desktop and phone apps, and if you make an account online, you can connect both to it and sync across the two devices with no effort. I can do my daily review and add cards from laptop or phone whenever something comes up. I use no subdecks, and zero complex features. Add cards, edit in the "browser", delete sometimes if I've second thoughts. 40 new cards each day, reviewing is ~45 mins and a joy. All that to say - it's a direct antidote to the issues being described here. I rush to new things less, and spend much more time consolidating and forming links between stuff I know or "knew". It's directly pushing me towards behaviour that fits the reality of how my brain works. Tabs are being closed with me saying to myself - I'll learn the name of the author and book for now, that's a good start. Great for birthdays, names, an anecdote you loved, a little idea you had, fleshing out your geography, history, knowledge of plants, lyrics, nuggets from the Common Lisp book you're doing, etc etc. So for me one huge thing to reclaim your brain and get acquainted with your memory is - flashcards!
senordevnyc 1y ago
Why is it scary? How much time do you spend fretting over the hunter gatherer skills you missed out on?

drewcoo 1y ago

Calculators also ruined the ability to understand and use logarithms (slide rules).

aminsadeghi 1y ago

I'd argue that using calculators instead of learning how addition is done does hurt kids' ability to do mental arithmetic. It's an experiment we haven't tried, or at least not in places I've lived in. Sure, once you get how addition is done, feel free to free up your mind skipping 2+ digit arithmetics using a calculator. Same as: sure, once you learned what caching is and implement a small prototype, feel free to ask Claude to implement caching for you.

etblg 1y ago

> For instance, people did lament the invention of calculators, saying it would harm kids' ability to do mental arithmetic. And it did. > Fortunately for us, we replaced those skills with technology that allowed us to do something analogous to them, but faster and more easily. Don't kids still learn to do arithmetic in their head first? I haven't been in a school in decades but I remember doing it all sans calculator in elementary school. When you move on up to higher level stuff you end up using a calculator, but it's not like we skip that step entirely, do we?

aminsadeghi 1y ago
Exactly! Steph Ango (Obsidian creator) has said it well in his "Don't delegate understanding" essay: https://stephango.com/understand https://stephango.com/understand
karaterobot 1y ago
I bet they do, but it's not a question of learning the skills in school. It's more about using those skills, which I don't think is as common today.

threatofrain 1y ago

I wonder if in the place of many lower level skills one is then freed to explore higher order skills. We now have very fancy calculators, such as in the form of tools like notebooks that connect to data sources and run transformations and show visualizations.

karaterobot 1y ago
Looking around, I don't see too many people exploring higher order skills using that spare brain power. I think at the margins, you've probably got really smart scientists/engineers/philosophers doing that, but what does the ordinary person in the street do? This is the grumpiest thing I'll say today, but it seems like they just scroll social media on their phones while streaming media plays in the background.

jrapdx3 1y ago

> "People also said that GPS navigation would hurt people's ability to use a map, or create one in their heads. And I'm old enough to say: it absolutely did." Thing is some people never were good at reading/using maps, much less creating them. Even with GPS at hand I still prefer seeing a map to know where I'm going. Anyway, retaining at least a modicum of "classic" skills is beneficial. After all, GPS isn't infallible. As with all complex technologies, possibility of failure warrants having alternatives. I was recently on a cruise, someone asked the ship's navigator whether officers were trained on using old instruments like the sextant. He replied that they were, and continue to drill on their use. Sure, the ship has up-to-date equipment, but knowing the "old ways" is potentially still relevant. > "The question is: what are the second- and third-order effects of losing those skills, or not learning them in the first place?" Naturally, old skills fade with advent of newer methods. There's a shortage of ferriers, people who shoe horses. Very few people are being apprenticed in the trade. (Though I'm told the work pays very well.) Owning horses is a niche but robust interest, so ferriers have full workloads, the occupation is not disappearing. Point is that in real-world terms losing skills diminishes the richness of human lives because there's value in all constructive human endeavor. Similarly an individual's life is enriched by acquiring fundamental skills even if seldom used. Of course we have to parcel our time wisely, but sparing a bit of time to exercise basic capabilities is probably a good idea.

ayrtondesozzla 1y ago
I recommend using Anki (or whatever software does the job) to commit everyday, normal stuff that comes up to long-term memory. Anki has desktop and phone apps, and if you make an account online, you can connect both to it and sync across the two devices with no effort. I can do my daily review and add cards from laptop or phone whenever something comes up. I use no subdecks, and zero complex features. Add cards, edit in the "browser", delete sometimes if I've second thoughts. 40 new cards each day, reviewing is ~45 mins and a joy. All that to say - it's a direct antidote to the issues being described here. I rush to new things less, and spend much more time consolidating and forming links between stuff I know or "knew". It's directly pushing me towards behaviour that fits the reality of how my brain works. Tabs are being closed with me saying to myself - I'll learn the name of the author and book for now, that's a good start. Great for birthdays, names, an anecdote you loved, a little idea you had, fleshing out your geography, history, knowledge of plants, lyrics, nuggets from the Common Lisp book you're doing, etc etc. So for me one huge thing to reclaim your brain and get acquainted with your memory is - flashcards!

senordevnyc 1y ago

Why is it scary? How much time do you spend fretting over the hunter gatherer skills you missed out on?