5 ms·

Also, importantly: * There is an accountability component where if you behave badly you will be banned from the shuttle service

ceejayoz 1y ago
That's entirely possible on buses. https://smdp.com/news/newsom-signs-bill-allowing-big-blue-bus-bans-for-offenders/ https://smdp.com/news/newsom-signs-bill-allowing-big-blue-bu... > Current law allows organizations like the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District (BART) to issue prohibition orders. BART is the only such agency that has actually issued prohibitions in California, giving out 1,118 such orders from 2019-2022. About 30% of orders issued by BART in 2022 were for battery or threats against riders.
- mdeeks 1y ago
  I can't imagine how this is enforced. Clipper cards and cash will get you on any bus without any sort of check to see if you're allowed. There is probably a lot of overlap of people who get banned the people who skip gates and fares.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    If Walmart and Target can manage facial recognition for shoplifting, I'd imagine it's at least possible to do with a bus system.
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      Walmart and Target probably are a lot less concerned with accuracy than a fare collecting entity would be; any benefit from facial recognition is a plus for them even if it often either is wrong or fails to hit when it should, whereas with toll collection it has to be near 100% to replace other payment mechanism, and nearly never get a false hit (though misses might be okay) to be a convenience method when people are still expected to have a reliable method for on hand for backup.
    - tlogan 1y ago
      Ah yes, the legendary facial recognition system—right next to the locked-up underwear and $1 deodorant. Flawless crime-fighting tech, really. /s
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > giving out 1,118 such orders from 2019-2022. About 30% of orders issued by BART in 2022 were for battery or threats against riders Curious if these bans are actually effective.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    >Curious if these bans are actually effective. They probably have all the tech to make them effective but don't want to turn it on for "petty" stuff like this because they don't want normal non-battery inclined customers and the general public to be aware of how surveilled they are on public transit.
    - lazyasciiart 1y ago
      I expect that it’s mostly used as an aggravating factor allowing escalated punishment if they cause trouble again.
mdeeks 1y ago
Strongly agreed. I have unfortunately had many infuriating and dangerous experiences on AC Transit and Bart. I'd pay extra to not have to be afraid I won't make it home to my kids.
- mmooss 1y ago
  Why aren't you paying extra then - Uber/Lyft or your own car?
  - mdeeks 1y ago
    Sometimes I do, but its eight times the cost and takes an extra 30 minutes each way. Ideally I would love to take public transportation. I love the idea of it, the economics, the traffic reduction, and the general social benefit. Unfortunately here it comes with some big negatives and they really wear you down after over a decade of it not really changing much.
lenerdenator 1y ago
If you behave badly on public transit there's a real chance that you get the ultimate ban: jail time.
- mdeeks 1y ago
  There is a very large and rampant amount of bad behavior well below the "jail time" threshold. Even then, the police can't be everywhere all of the time.
  - mmooss 1y ago
    > There is a very large and rampant amount of bad behavior well below the "jail time" threshold. Where? I don't see it in major cities I am in, and I take public transit regularly.
  - watwut 1y ago
    Then your city has much larger problem. In my city, public transport is as safe as anywhere else. That is how most people get to work. And kids to school.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > If you behave badly on public transit there's a real chance that you get the ultimate ban: jail time In New York or San Francisco?
SoftTalker 1y ago
The requirement to actually pay will keep much of the riff-raff out. In my local bus system, you theoretically have to pay but the drivers are not going to throw you off the bus if you don't and so the buses all have a few homeless guys who just ride all day.
- vkou 1y ago
  Don't know what town you live in, but here in Seattle, very few bus routes have homeless people who ride them all day. The vast majority don't. The reason transit in this city sucks (still head and shoulders above the vast majority of the US) isn't because there's 12,000+ homeless people living in it[1], it's because the buses don't run frequently enough and because all the fucking single-occupant car traffic turns what would be a 20 minute bus ride into a 40 minute slog, and because you'd be insane to bike for your last-mile. --- [1] Increasing every year, and under the current mayor's tenure, we lost a net of 200 shelter beds.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > because the buses don't run frequently enough Yup. The subway works because one need not bother checking timetables. You show up at the station and expect a car. I could totally see interspersing shuttles between buses reducing latency to the point that it leads to an uptick in bus use.
  - lazyasciiart 1y ago
    The RapidRide routes actually have hit plausible frequency. I live near the newly opened G line, and can now just walk out to the bus stop assuming there will be one within 10 minutes, usually less. And they’ve given enough dedicated lane space that it is faster than traffic.
- mmooss 1y ago
  Are you assuming people share your prejudice? Who is 'riff-raff'? Maybe I think you are (and vice versa). I've never had a problem with someone who seems to be unhoused (I wouldn't know). I have had problems with people on their phones in big SUVs, or who just feel like being a*holes.
mmooss 1y ago
I think it's a worry of people not familiar with cities. I ride public transit in cities all the time. It's fine.
- mdeeks 1y ago
  I ride the bus and Bart in the San Francisco bay area and I've lived here my entire adult life. It is not fine. About once a week some kind of event happens. Off the top of my head these are things I have experienced both on Bart and AC Transit (though mainly Bart): * I've been punched twice. Not hard, but an angry person hitting me in the shoulder and the back because they were drunk or high and I guess I looked at them wrong * I've been shoved out of the way hard probably five separate times? * People openly smoking crack, smoking weed. * People high out of their mind. Just on monday some guy had his pants around his ankles high out of his mind swirling around and rubbing up against riders. * A man shouting and punching the top of the train saying he's going to kill himself * A man screaming profanities, calling women the c-word, sluts, saying he's going to rape people * Multiple fights * Someone getting their phone swiped out of their hand and punched in the head when he tried to chase them. * I watched someone eat most of a burrito, stand up, turn it upside down and squish it onto the seat. * I saw a man with a concealed gun tucked behind him into his belt walking around the station looking for someone. These are definitely some of the worst events, but something on the spectrum of "bad" happens weekly.
77pt77 1y ago
Good luck with that. All you need is a phone number and a credit/debit card. Uber does not veto passengers at all.

ceejayoz 1y ago

That's entirely possible on buses. https://smdp.com/news/newsom-signs-bill-allowing-big-blue-bus-bans-for-offenders/ https://smdp.com/news/newsom-signs-bill-allowing-big-blue-bu... > Current law allows organizations like the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District (BART) to issue prohibition orders. BART is the only such agency that has actually issued prohibitions in California, giving out 1,118 such orders from 2019-2022. About 30% of orders issued by BART in 2022 were for battery or threats against riders.

mdeeks 1y ago
I can't imagine how this is enforced. Clipper cards and cash will get you on any bus without any sort of check to see if you're allowed. There is probably a lot of overlap of people who get banned the people who skip gates and fares.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  If Walmart and Target can manage facial recognition for shoplifting, I'd imagine it's at least possible to do with a bus system.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    Walmart and Target probably are a lot less concerned with accuracy than a fare collecting entity would be; any benefit from facial recognition is a plus for them even if it often either is wrong or fails to hit when it should, whereas with toll collection it has to be near 100% to replace other payment mechanism, and nearly never get a false hit (though misses might be okay) to be a convenience method when people are still expected to have a reliable method for on hand for backup.
  - tlogan 1y ago
    Ah yes, the legendary facial recognition system—right next to the locked-up underwear and $1 deodorant. Flawless crime-fighting tech, really. /s
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> giving out 1,118 such orders from 2019-2022. About 30% of orders issued by BART in 2022 were for battery or threats against riders Curious if these bans are actually effective.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  >Curious if these bans are actually effective. They probably have all the tech to make them effective but don't want to turn it on for "petty" stuff like this because they don't want normal non-battery inclined customers and the general public to be aware of how surveilled they are on public transit.
  - lazyasciiart 1y ago
    I expect that it’s mostly used as an aggravating factor allowing escalated punishment if they cause trouble again.

mdeeks 1y ago

Strongly agreed. I have unfortunately had many infuriating and dangerous experiences on AC Transit and Bart. I'd pay extra to not have to be afraid I won't make it home to my kids.

mmooss 1y ago
Why aren't you paying extra then - Uber/Lyft or your own car?
- mdeeks 1y ago
  Sometimes I do, but its eight times the cost and takes an extra 30 minutes each way. Ideally I would love to take public transportation. I love the idea of it, the economics, the traffic reduction, and the general social benefit. Unfortunately here it comes with some big negatives and they really wear you down after over a decade of it not really changing much.

lenerdenator 1y ago

If you behave badly on public transit there's a real chance that you get the ultimate ban: jail time.

mdeeks 1y ago
There is a very large and rampant amount of bad behavior well below the "jail time" threshold. Even then, the police can't be everywhere all of the time.
- mmooss 1y ago
  > There is a very large and rampant amount of bad behavior well below the "jail time" threshold. Where? I don't see it in major cities I am in, and I take public transit regularly.
- watwut 1y ago
  Then your city has much larger problem. In my city, public transport is as safe as anywhere else. That is how most people get to work. And kids to school.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> If you behave badly on public transit there's a real chance that you get the ultimate ban: jail time In New York or San Francisco?

SoftTalker 1y ago

The requirement to actually pay will keep much of the riff-raff out. In my local bus system, you theoretically have to pay but the drivers are not going to throw you off the bus if you don't and so the buses all have a few homeless guys who just ride all day.

vkou 1y ago
Don't know what town you live in, but here in Seattle, very few bus routes have homeless people who ride them all day. The vast majority don't. The reason transit in this city sucks (still head and shoulders above the vast majority of the US) isn't because there's 12,000+ homeless people living in it[1], it's because the buses don't run frequently enough and because all the fucking single-occupant car traffic turns what would be a 20 minute bus ride into a 40 minute slog, and because you'd be insane to bike for your last-mile. --- [1] Increasing every year, and under the current mayor's tenure, we lost a net of 200 shelter beds.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > because the buses don't run frequently enough Yup. The subway works because one need not bother checking timetables. You show up at the station and expect a car. I could totally see interspersing shuttles between buses reducing latency to the point that it leads to an uptick in bus use.
- lazyasciiart 1y ago
  The RapidRide routes actually have hit plausible frequency. I live near the newly opened G line, and can now just walk out to the bus stop assuming there will be one within 10 minutes, usually less. And they’ve given enough dedicated lane space that it is faster than traffic.
mmooss 1y ago
Are you assuming people share your prejudice? Who is 'riff-raff'? Maybe I think you are (and vice versa). I've never had a problem with someone who seems to be unhoused (I wouldn't know). I have had problems with people on their phones in big SUVs, or who just feel like being a*holes.

mmooss 1y ago

I think it's a worry of people not familiar with cities. I ride public transit in cities all the time. It's fine.

mdeeks 1y ago
I ride the bus and Bart in the San Francisco bay area and I've lived here my entire adult life. It is not fine. About once a week some kind of event happens. Off the top of my head these are things I have experienced both on Bart and AC Transit (though mainly Bart): * I've been punched twice. Not hard, but an angry person hitting me in the shoulder and the back because they were drunk or high and I guess I looked at them wrong * I've been shoved out of the way hard probably five separate times? * People openly smoking crack, smoking weed. * People high out of their mind. Just on monday some guy had his pants around his ankles high out of his mind swirling around and rubbing up against riders. * A man shouting and punching the top of the train saying he's going to kill himself * A man screaming profanities, calling women the c-word, sluts, saying he's going to rape people * Multiple fights * Someone getting their phone swiped out of their hand and punched in the head when he tried to chase them. * I watched someone eat most of a burrito, stand up, turn it upside down and squish it onto the seat. * I saw a man with a concealed gun tucked behind him into his belt walking around the station looking for someone. These are definitely some of the worst events, but something on the spectrum of "bad" happens weekly.

77pt77 1y ago

Good luck with that. All you need is a phone number and a credit/debit card. Uber does not veto passengers at all.