11 ms·

So its like a more expensive version of public transportation, that also causes more traffic congestion and pollution because you've got a ton of cars on the ro

So its like a more expensive version of public transportation, that also causes more traffic congestion and pollution because you've got a ton of cars on the road doing the job of a single bus/trolley/train

SonOfKyuss 1y ago
It seems like it is targeted at people who currently commute by car. It could be a net benefit if the number of car riders who use it outnumber the amount of people it cannibalizes from public transportation.
delfinom 1y ago
This is actually just competing with exhausting "competiton" in this space. In NYC we got dollar vans. https://queenseagle.com/all/dollar-van-transit-system https://queenseagle.com/all/dollar-van-transit-system
- Suppafly 1y ago
  My kid was in the hospital in Chicago and there were a ton of shuttles that run routes between the various hotels and the hospital. In a big city, shuttles have a lot more flexibility than buses. While I don't know if Chicago has something akin to dollar vans, I could see it really working if those shuttles all just added a few extra stops. A lot of cities have shuttles organized to do the routes between colleges and bars, usually owned and managed by the bars themselves.
bko 1y ago
The whole argument about "inefficiency of duplicative services" is an idea that needs to die. Whether its the Soviet Union trying to optimize shampoo production to create a single "shampoo" brand or a health care provider requiring a "certificate of need" [0] to open up, the results are always the same: no competition, bad service, low supply and high prices [0] https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/ https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/
- bluGill 1y ago
  The problem is this isn't more efficient than just owning your own private car. A mass transit solution would be. Nothing wrong with inefficient solutions, but don't try to pretend you have the advantages of an efficient solution when you are not it.
- ausbah 1y ago
  but a road or mass transit isn’t the same as a shampoo brand. roads and vehicles already take up enough space (amongst other things) in dense urban areas, so i think adding even more under the guise of “competition” would incur a bunch of worse side effects. i think they’re akin more to a natural monopoly
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  > health care provider requiring a "certificate of need" [0] to open up, the results are always the same: no competition That was the exact motivation of CoNs. Guess who lobbied for them? The healthcare industry. Depending on the state you're in, it could be anything from bureaucratic red tape to dissuade new providers to the near-literal "We will ask your competitors how much business they will lose by you opening," that gives those competitors the ability to object on those grounds alone.
xnx 1y ago
> So its like a more expensive version of public transportation, Most US public transit systems are funded by taxes in addition to fares. The true cost of a bus ride can be many times the ticket price. If the services doesn't provide enough value for the service, let the customer decide. > that also causes more traffic congestion and pollution because you've got a ton of cars on the road doing the job of a single bus/trolley/train Buses are huge obstacles to the free flow of traffic (e.g. blocking right turns, slow left turns, blocking car and bike lanes with width) and are heavy polluters (diesel powered, oversized for most of their operating time). Public transit agencies want to outlaw services like Chariot (https://sf.curbed.com/2019/1/10/18177528/chariot-san-francisco-out-of-business https://sf.curbed.com/2019/1/10/18177528/chariot-san-francis...) because they don't want the competition.
- tenebrisalietum 1y ago
  By your logic we should get rid of trucks and have all freight delivered by car.
  - xnx 1y ago
    My logic is trying to use the most efficient method to safely, efficiently, and affordably transport people. Deliveries are already scaled to the items they carry. No one is delivering a pizza in a semi-truck.
    - politelemon 1y ago
      Which is what buses do. They are the lesser polluters, safe, efficient. For reasons unknown you are assuming buses are statistically empty when comparing them.
      - LtWorf 1y ago
        They're empty at night in the parking lot!
- bluGill 1y ago
pier25 1y ago
Yeah In Mexico they have these public transport vans and small buses (called combis and micro buses) that are truly a plague in bigger cities. Lots of pollution, lots of traffic, etc. It works for small cities but it just doesn't scale when you need to move millions. In some routes they've been replaced by a metrobus[1] but still plenty of those vans around. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Metrob%C3%BAs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Metrob%C3%BAs
- xtracto 1y ago
  Combis are the only way to serve the last mile for a lot of locations in Mexico that don't have a large commuting population. It's the only cost efficient way to provide public transport to those pueblos or zones in the margins of the huge city.
  - pier25 1y ago
    Combis in pueblos or the margin of a city are ok. They are not ok clogging big avenues like Insurgentes.

SonOfKyuss 1y ago

It seems like it is targeted at people who currently commute by car. It could be a net benefit if the number of car riders who use it outnumber the amount of people it cannibalizes from public transportation.

delfinom 1y ago

This is actually just competing with exhausting "competiton" in this space. In NYC we got dollar vans. https://queenseagle.com/all/dollar-van-transit-system https://queenseagle.com/all/dollar-van-transit-system

Suppafly 1y ago
My kid was in the hospital in Chicago and there were a ton of shuttles that run routes between the various hotels and the hospital. In a big city, shuttles have a lot more flexibility than buses. While I don't know if Chicago has something akin to dollar vans, I could see it really working if those shuttles all just added a few extra stops. A lot of cities have shuttles organized to do the routes between colleges and bars, usually owned and managed by the bars themselves.

bko 1y ago

The whole argument about "inefficiency of duplicative services" is an idea that needs to die. Whether its the Soviet Union trying to optimize shampoo production to create a single "shampoo" brand or a health care provider requiring a "certificate of need" [0] to open up, the results are always the same: no competition, bad service, low supply and high prices [0] https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/ https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/

bluGill 1y ago
The problem is this isn't more efficient than just owning your own private car. A mass transit solution would be. Nothing wrong with inefficient solutions, but don't try to pretend you have the advantages of an efficient solution when you are not it.
ausbah 1y ago
but a road or mass transit isn’t the same as a shampoo brand. roads and vehicles already take up enough space (amongst other things) in dense urban areas, so i think adding even more under the guise of “competition” would incur a bunch of worse side effects. i think they’re akin more to a natural monopoly
FireBeyond 1y ago
> health care provider requiring a "certificate of need" [0] to open up, the results are always the same: no competition That was the exact motivation of CoNs. Guess who lobbied for them? The healthcare industry. Depending on the state you're in, it could be anything from bureaucratic red tape to dissuade new providers to the near-literal "We will ask your competitors how much business they will lose by you opening," that gives those competitors the ability to object on those grounds alone.

xnx 1y ago

> So its like a more expensive version of public transportation, Most US public transit systems are funded by taxes in addition to fares. The true cost of a bus ride can be many times the ticket price. If the services doesn't provide enough value for the service, let the customer decide. > that also causes more traffic congestion and pollution because you've got a ton of cars on the road doing the job of a single bus/trolley/train Buses are huge obstacles to the free flow of traffic (e.g. blocking right turns, slow left turns, blocking car and bike lanes with width) and are heavy polluters (diesel powered, oversized for most of their operating time). Public transit agencies want to outlaw services like Chariot (https://sf.curbed.com/2019/1/10/18177528/chariot-san-francisco-out-of-business https://sf.curbed.com/2019/1/10/18177528/chariot-san-francis...) because they don't want the competition.

tenebrisalietum 1y ago
By your logic we should get rid of trucks and have all freight delivered by car.
- xnx 1y ago
  My logic is trying to use the most efficient method to safely, efficiently, and affordably transport people. Deliveries are already scaled to the items they carry. No one is delivering a pizza in a semi-truck.
  - politelemon 1y ago
    Which is what buses do. They are the lesser polluters, safe, efficient. For reasons unknown you are assuming buses are statistically empty when comparing them.
    - LtWorf 1y ago
      They're empty at night in the parking lot!
bluGill 1y ago

pier25 1y ago

Yeah In Mexico they have these public transport vans and small buses (called combis and micro buses) that are truly a plague in bigger cities. Lots of pollution, lots of traffic, etc. It works for small cities but it just doesn't scale when you need to move millions. In some routes they've been replaced by a metrobus[1] but still plenty of those vans around. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Metrob%C3%BAs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Metrob%C3%BAs

xtracto 1y ago
Combis are the only way to serve the last mile for a lot of locations in Mexico that don't have a large commuting population. It's the only cost efficient way to provide public transport to those pueblos or zones in the margins of the huge city.
- pier25 1y ago
  Combis in pueblos or the margin of a city are ok. They are not ok clogging big avenues like Insurgentes.