13 ms·

I think this is one of those ideas that sounds good on paper but breaks down in practice. One immediate problem that comes to mind is that you need a smartphon

by ysavir 1y ago

I think this is one of those ideas that sounds good on paper but breaks down in practice. One immediate problem that comes to mind is that you need a smartphone to take public transit. So if there's a teen without a smartphone, they can't take the bus, nor can someone who's phone died, etc. One of the amazing things of the current system, as simple as it is, is that it's predictable and doesn't require coordination. You can walk to a bus stop and know that a bus will arrive and take you where you expect to go, same as the last time you've taken it and the time before that. You don't need to look up a map to see what today's route is, or to see where the stop is, or to let the bus know you're waiting for you. You just show up at the bus stop and the rest just happens in a predictable and reliable fashion.

dheera 1y ago
> you need a smartphone to take public transit Life in China these days does not support not having a smartphone. Renting a shared bike, using a public Wi-Fi, ordering at a restaurant, literally everything requires an SMS confirmation now. There are even automated convenience stores that require scanning a QR code to enter. App-based mobile payments (Wechat/Alipay) is pretty much the only payment method ever used. Cash and cards are almost never seen.
- ghaff 1y ago
  One challenge with the SMS thing is when I travel from US to Europe I fairly routinely get a local SIM and turn off my US number.
  - dheera 1y ago
    Yeah I absolutely hate the SMS thing. I usually use Google Fi for almost all international travel (free roaming almost everywhere) but I need an additional local SIM in China because most of the SMS confirmation apps there only support +86 numbers.
- _lvbh 1y ago
  Mostly yes but, I spent ~2 months traveling in Chongqing in 2023, most of the time without a SIM. You can get into most public wifis with a bit of scanning and mac spoofing. All public transport still accepted cash (or transit card) and was extremely cheap. Even if some shops no longer accept cash, there will always be ones that do. Not planning on going back anytime soon but if I ever do, I would not be a fan of requiring internet to deal with public transport.
luke-stanley 1y ago
In my experience, on a public bus there is reasonable chance of getting a working USB A socket. But as a private business, it's not a complete replacement of the public bus system, however apps are used by people already to book on-the-fly cheap group taxi trips in Shanghai. For good or ill, most teens do have a smartphone on them, and even kids are often seen with smartwatches that have tracking, and probably WeChat, and every mall I've been to sells them. On the Shanghai bus and metro, people often use a Shanghai public transport card to pay, they do accept old fashioned cash though too. Powerbank rental networks are common on the street and non-returns default to purchases (~$14–$28 USD). Malls, and the Metro often has power available for free.
ffsm8 1y ago
These examples are all easily solved. I.e. replace the bus stops with terminals/kiosks which give you full service, potentially another in the middle of the bus.
sxg 1y ago
> One of the amazing things of the current system, as simple as it is, is that it's predictable and doesn't require coordination. In many cities, the exact opposite of that has been true in my experience. I’ve waited at bus/train stops only for it to be 20+ min late or never show up multiple times per week. The unpredictability makes it infeasible as a means of transportation to getting to work or anything time sensitive (e.g., sporting event or show downtown). This is a much bigger problem in smaller cities with rudimentary public transit, but I’ve also experienced it in larger cities like Philadelphia.
- svachalek 1y ago
  My few attempts to take a bus in San Diego lead me to believe the schedule is for entertainment purposes only.
- const_cast 1y ago
  IME this is only a problem really in American cities because we put as close to zero effort into public transit as possible. We just plop buses on the road and expect that to do something. I did also have this experience with the London underground during strikes, but it wasn't a surprise and we could still see when trains would arrive. So, much less unpredictable.
  - schwartzworld 1y ago
    It’s a very American thing to do. Barely fund an essential public service and then cry about how privatization solves all the problems created by that neglect. We spent 2.5trillion on the military last year. But the minute someone talks about putting money into things that benefit the general population it’s like “where’s the money for free healthcare come from, Bernie bro?” “Can’t give kids free lunch, they need skin in the game” “can’t have free education, something something bootstraps”
  - whatevaa 1y ago
    Not just America. Europe is not just big cities and Swiss, it happens in Europe too, especially as cities get smaller.
SR2Z 1y ago
> So if there's a teen without a smartphone, they can't take the bus, nor can someone who's phone died, etc. I feel very strongly that if a teenager is old and responsible enough to take the bus on their own, they are old and responsible enough for a smartphone. Furthermore, it's actively harmful to send your kids out into the world without the kinds of modern tools that would make them safer and more independent. As for "phone died," well... just find a place to recharge it. It's not particularly difficult these days and I can't actually remember the last time my phone died on me when I needed it. OP is a really cool demonstration of what we can do when everyone carries a computer in their pocket. Uber in the US has something similar with airport shuttles. Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone?
- thangalin 1y ago
  > Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone? (a) Not everyone has a (smart) phone. (b) Not everyone can use a (smart) phone. (c) Not everyone wants a phone. (d) Not everyone can afford a phone. (e) Not everyone wants to upgrade their phone to use the newest shiny things. (f) Not everyone can upgrade their phone (see (d)). (g) Not everyone opts to put (third-party) apps on their smart phone. (h) Not all apps are built with accessibility in mind (see (b)). (i) Some folks are concerned about mass surveillance (see (g)). (j) Sometimes phones get stolen. (k) Sometimes phones get broken. (l) Sometimes phones get bricked. (m) Sometimes phones get hacked. (n) Sometimes phone get locked out. (o) Sometimes apps stop working. (p) Sometimes cell service goes offline (see Hurricane Helene).
  - ProllyInfamous 1y ago
    As a forty-something semi-retired electrician, the following apply to me: (c) I own a cell phone, but NEVER leave the house with it (effectively a landline, but less expensive). When my city recently began requiring an app for public street parking, I simply stopped paying for parking (it's only a $16 fine, unless you are handicapped == free). (e) The only thing that causes me to update my phone is when the battery swells up (typically around eight years). Otherwise I don't even update the original OS. (g) Flat out, I refuse to use your app (i) Whether by business/marketing or governments, agreed
moogleii 1y ago
I didn't get the impression this was totally replacing static routes. Seemed to be augmenting it. But also, while your concerns are valid, I don't think they are large enough to not try these things.
sho_hn 1y ago
> One immediate problem that comes to mind is that you need a smartphone to take public transit. In China, Korea and other places, a smartphone is already the required entrance ticket to public life. It's a little bit like faulting sidewalks for assuming footwear.
- er4hn 1y ago
  In China in particular a smartphone is the primary means to interact with restaurant menus, place orders, and pay for many things. Rentable battery packs are also pretty ubiquitous. I once asked an in-law what happens if your phone completely runs out of food and you're hungry. He (jokingly) replied "no phone, no eat".
LittleOtter 1y ago
[dead]
mldqj 1y ago
> if there's a teen without a smartphone I live in Shanghai. Many if not all kids have smart watches with payment apps.

by ysavir 1y ago

dheera 1y ago

> you need a smartphone to take public transit Life in China these days does not support not having a smartphone. Renting a shared bike, using a public Wi-Fi, ordering at a restaurant, literally everything requires an SMS confirmation now. There are even automated convenience stores that require scanning a QR code to enter. App-based mobile payments (Wechat/Alipay) is pretty much the only payment method ever used. Cash and cards are almost never seen.

ghaff 1y ago
One challenge with the SMS thing is when I travel from US to Europe I fairly routinely get a local SIM and turn off my US number.
- dheera 1y ago
  Yeah I absolutely hate the SMS thing. I usually use Google Fi for almost all international travel (free roaming almost everywhere) but I need an additional local SIM in China because most of the SMS confirmation apps there only support +86 numbers.
_lvbh 1y ago
Mostly yes but, I spent ~2 months traveling in Chongqing in 2023, most of the time without a SIM. You can get into most public wifis with a bit of scanning and mac spoofing. All public transport still accepted cash (or transit card) and was extremely cheap. Even if some shops no longer accept cash, there will always be ones that do. Not planning on going back anytime soon but if I ever do, I would not be a fan of requiring internet to deal with public transport.

luke-stanley 1y ago

In my experience, on a public bus there is reasonable chance of getting a working USB A socket. But as a private business, it's not a complete replacement of the public bus system, however apps are used by people already to book on-the-fly cheap group taxi trips in Shanghai. For good or ill, most teens do have a smartphone on them, and even kids are often seen with smartwatches that have tracking, and probably WeChat, and every mall I've been to sells them. On the Shanghai bus and metro, people often use a Shanghai public transport card to pay, they do accept old fashioned cash though too. Powerbank rental networks are common on the street and non-returns default to purchases (~$14–$28 USD). Malls, and the Metro often has power available for free.

ffsm8 1y ago

These examples are all easily solved. I.e. replace the bus stops with terminals/kiosks which give you full service, potentially another in the middle of the bus.

sxg 1y ago

> One of the amazing things of the current system, as simple as it is, is that it's predictable and doesn't require coordination. In many cities, the exact opposite of that has been true in my experience. I’ve waited at bus/train stops only for it to be 20+ min late or never show up multiple times per week. The unpredictability makes it infeasible as a means of transportation to getting to work or anything time sensitive (e.g., sporting event or show downtown). This is a much bigger problem in smaller cities with rudimentary public transit, but I’ve also experienced it in larger cities like Philadelphia.

svachalek 1y ago
My few attempts to take a bus in San Diego lead me to believe the schedule is for entertainment purposes only.
const_cast 1y ago
IME this is only a problem really in American cities because we put as close to zero effort into public transit as possible. We just plop buses on the road and expect that to do something. I did also have this experience with the London underground during strikes, but it wasn't a surprise and we could still see when trains would arrive. So, much less unpredictable.
- schwartzworld 1y ago
  It’s a very American thing to do. Barely fund an essential public service and then cry about how privatization solves all the problems created by that neglect. We spent 2.5trillion on the military last year. But the minute someone talks about putting money into things that benefit the general population it’s like “where’s the money for free healthcare come from, Bernie bro?” “Can’t give kids free lunch, they need skin in the game” “can’t have free education, something something bootstraps”
- whatevaa 1y ago
  Not just America. Europe is not just big cities and Swiss, it happens in Europe too, especially as cities get smaller.

SR2Z 1y ago

> So if there's a teen without a smartphone, they can't take the bus, nor can someone who's phone died, etc. I feel very strongly that if a teenager is old and responsible enough to take the bus on their own, they are old and responsible enough for a smartphone. Furthermore, it's actively harmful to send your kids out into the world without the kinds of modern tools that would make them safer and more independent. As for "phone died," well... just find a place to recharge it. It's not particularly difficult these days and I can't actually remember the last time my phone died on me when I needed it. OP is a really cool demonstration of what we can do when everyone carries a computer in their pocket. Uber in the US has something similar with airport shuttles. Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone?

thangalin 1y ago
> Why should we handicap new, shiny things to make them usable without a phone? (a) Not everyone has a (smart) phone. (b) Not everyone can use a (smart) phone. (c) Not everyone wants a phone. (d) Not everyone can afford a phone. (e) Not everyone wants to upgrade their phone to use the newest shiny things. (f) Not everyone can upgrade their phone (see (d)). (g) Not everyone opts to put (third-party) apps on their smart phone. (h) Not all apps are built with accessibility in mind (see (b)). (i) Some folks are concerned about mass surveillance (see (g)). (j) Sometimes phones get stolen. (k) Sometimes phones get broken. (l) Sometimes phones get bricked. (m) Sometimes phones get hacked. (n) Sometimes phone get locked out. (o) Sometimes apps stop working. (p) Sometimes cell service goes offline (see Hurricane Helene).
- ProllyInfamous 1y ago
  As a forty-something semi-retired electrician, the following apply to me: (c) I own a cell phone, but NEVER leave the house with it (effectively a landline, but less expensive). When my city recently began requiring an app for public street parking, I simply stopped paying for parking (it's only a $16 fine, unless you are handicapped == free). (e) The only thing that causes me to update my phone is when the battery swells up (typically around eight years). Otherwise I don't even update the original OS. (g) Flat out, I refuse to use your app (i) Whether by business/marketing or governments, agreed

moogleii 1y ago

I didn't get the impression this was totally replacing static routes. Seemed to be augmenting it. But also, while your concerns are valid, I don't think they are large enough to not try these things.

sho_hn 1y ago

> One immediate problem that comes to mind is that you need a smartphone to take public transit. In China, Korea and other places, a smartphone is already the required entrance ticket to public life. It's a little bit like faulting sidewalks for assuming footwear.

er4hn 1y ago
In China in particular a smartphone is the primary means to interact with restaurant menus, place orders, and pay for many things. Rentable battery packs are also pretty ubiquitous. I once asked an in-law what happens if your phone completely runs out of food and you're hungry. He (jokingly) replied "no phone, no eat".

LittleOtter 1y ago

[dead]

mldqj 1y ago

> if there's a teen without a smartphone I live in Shanghai. Many if not all kids have smart watches with payment apps.