5 ms·

This is a really good point, "cell service will always be available" is a classic incorrect assumption that needs to be shattered. I do kinda wonder what the co

This is a really good point, "cell service will always be available" is a classic incorrect assumption that needs to be shattered. I do kinda wonder what the correct way forward is, I think it's silly that ISPs don't support this type of SMS over wifi but I have no clue why. Meanwhile TOTP apps are rightly pointed out to be too numerous with unclear trade offs, I'm surprised ios and android don't have native TOTP apps (afaik). As an aside, I hate the nuance-less "SMS 2FA is insecure" line. It's the weakest 2FA form for sure, but it's still so much better than not having 2FA. Even if you support multiple options depending on your product it may very well make sense to stick with SMS as the default to reduce friction.

thesuitonym 1y ago
I'm pretty sure they both do have TOTP but it's not well documented that it even exists, and it's difficult for regular users to use. In iOS it in the Passwords app (née Keychain) and in Android I think it's buried in the settings app of all places. People don't know it exists and don't know how to use it, and even if they did, unless you're already using it for password management, it's difficult to know how to find it. Instructions usually default to a single authenticator app, like Google Authenticator or Microsoft Authenticator, so people end up with multiple apps (Not to mention the garbage adware that always pops up in app store search). And half the time the instructions simply say "Your authenticator app," which doesn't help Joe Schmoe who has no clue where he saved that OTP.
- reginald78 1y ago
  Many of the big companies seem to really want you to use their app so there's this big game of smoke and mirrors to avoid saying it is TOTP or what they're actually doing. And of course they make it as big of a pain to export your codes as they can get away with. Then they hide behind it being complicated and that is why they have to do this to help grandma, but much of complexity is due to their obfuscation.
hocuspocus 1y ago
> I'm surprised ios and android don't have native TOTP apps (afaik). They do. Google's Authenticator is as close as it gets to a native Android app, and your secret keys are sync'ed in Google's cloud for a while now (it's a shame they waited so long). Apple's Keychain has supported TOTP for ages too. That said OTPs over RCS instead of SMS are a major improvement if you don't mind your phone number being used as an identifier.
- vbezhenar 1y ago
  Google Authenticator is a separate app that you need to download from Google Play. Native android solution is Google Password app which is pre-installed (at least on Pixel) and its functionality is extremely rudimentary even compared to Apple Passwords. No TOTP support there. I think that Google does not care about security for their users, because their passwords app is clearly some intern work, not something really well thought. They just slapped it to mark a checkbox in their "Chrome password autofill" TODO list and moved on to a more pressing issues like implementing user tracking and extracting more ads revenue. Apple had similar issues for years, but I think that their recent releases significantly improved.
  - hocuspocus 1y ago
    It's not ideal but there's been some progress. I'm not sure we can blame Google for not pushing their Authenticator more, most services have been dead set on SMS and are now slowly moving to Passkeys, probably for the best.
    - vbezhenar 1y ago
      I don't want Google to push their Authenticator, I want Google to retire their Authenticator, implement TOTP codes in their Passwords app (it's very trivial to implement) and implement passkeys on Google Chrome Linux (now those are not trivial, but if they push passkeys so hard, they could at least implement them). I also want to be able to store any items in Google Passwords manager, like ssh username/password, my bank cards, software serial codes and other sensitive information (again trivial to implement, just provide me multiline textedit with notes). I also want password generator in their app. I also want to configure multiple domains for entry, like microsoft.com + live.com. Are those big requests? I don't think so.

thesuitonym 1y ago

I'm pretty sure they both do have TOTP but it's not well documented that it even exists, and it's difficult for regular users to use. In iOS it in the Passwords app (née Keychain) and in Android I think it's buried in the settings app of all places. People don't know it exists and don't know how to use it, and even if they did, unless you're already using it for password management, it's difficult to know how to find it. Instructions usually default to a single authenticator app, like Google Authenticator or Microsoft Authenticator, so people end up with multiple apps (Not to mention the garbage adware that always pops up in app store search). And half the time the instructions simply say "Your authenticator app," which doesn't help Joe Schmoe who has no clue where he saved that OTP.

reginald78 1y ago
Many of the big companies seem to really want you to use their app so there's this big game of smoke and mirrors to avoid saying it is TOTP or what they're actually doing. And of course they make it as big of a pain to export your codes as they can get away with. Then they hide behind it being complicated and that is why they have to do this to help grandma, but much of complexity is due to their obfuscation.

hocuspocus 1y ago

> I'm surprised ios and android don't have native TOTP apps (afaik). They do. Google's Authenticator is as close as it gets to a native Android app, and your secret keys are sync'ed in Google's cloud for a while now (it's a shame they waited so long). Apple's Keychain has supported TOTP for ages too. That said OTPs over RCS instead of SMS are a major improvement if you don't mind your phone number being used as an identifier.

vbezhenar 1y ago
Google Authenticator is a separate app that you need to download from Google Play. Native android solution is Google Password app which is pre-installed (at least on Pixel) and its functionality is extremely rudimentary even compared to Apple Passwords. No TOTP support there. I think that Google does not care about security for their users, because their passwords app is clearly some intern work, not something really well thought. They just slapped it to mark a checkbox in their "Chrome password autofill" TODO list and moved on to a more pressing issues like implementing user tracking and extracting more ads revenue. Apple had similar issues for years, but I think that their recent releases significantly improved.
- hocuspocus 1y ago
  It's not ideal but there's been some progress. I'm not sure we can blame Google for not pushing their Authenticator more, most services have been dead set on SMS and are now slowly moving to Passkeys, probably for the best.
  - vbezhenar 1y ago
    I don't want Google to push their Authenticator, I want Google to retire their Authenticator, implement TOTP codes in their Passwords app (it's very trivial to implement) and implement passkeys on Google Chrome Linux (now those are not trivial, but if they push passkeys so hard, they could at least implement them). I also want to be able to store any items in Google Passwords manager, like ssh username/password, my bank cards, software serial codes and other sensitive information (again trivial to implement, just provide me multiline textedit with notes). I also want password generator in their app. I also want to configure multiple domains for entry, like microsoft.com + live.com. Are those big requests? I don't think so.