6 ms·

Yes on this: It reminds me of when candidates ask me how they did at the end of the interview. It shows an extreme lack of decorum and empathy. What if you did

Yes on this: It reminds me of when candidates ask me how they did at the end of the interview. It shows an extreme lack of decorum and empathy. What if you did terribly and I wouldn't hire you in a million years? Do you really want me to tell you that? There's no good answer and asking a question like that shows real narcissism imo.

thaumaturgy 1y ago
Conversely, if you can't handle some straightforward feedback to a candidate that took the time to interview you without violating decorum or hurting their feelings, then how can I expect you to be a good manager or supervisor? How are you possibly going to be able to handle minor personnel conflicts or provide guidance during the training period? It comes across as a complete lack of basic managerial skills.
- theamk 1y ago
  Supervisors/manages don't usually do coding interviews though, especially in bigger orgs. There is usually a separate interview stage with some sort of manager, and those usually have no coding.
  - thaumaturgy 1y ago
    Okay, but basic interpersonal skills are a prerequisite for anybody in a senior or team lead position, or any position that will involve code reviews. I'm sympathetic to how awkward it can feel to provide honest feedback to a candidate, but look: we're all people here. I think we forget that sometimes when we're assembling hiring processes. As a candidate, you need some kind of feedback mechanism that allows you to improve even if you're not a good fit for a particular organization. And if you're involved in the hiring process in any way, you ought to be equipped to handle that.
    - throwaway2037 1y ago
      > you need some kind of feedback mechanism that allows you to improve even if you're not a good fit for a particular organization "Need". That is a strong term. I disagree. It would be nice, but it is not a need. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam on HN. In most companies, there is specific company policy that prohibits providing feedback to candidates. There is literally no upside for these companies to provide feedback to candidates that they reject (except Fake/Feel-Good Internet Points, only redeemable on HN forums). Really: There is no way around it, no matter how many tears are spilled about it on HN.
      - silisili 1y ago
        > In most companies, there is specific company policy that prohibits providing feedback to candidates. There is literally no upside for these companies to provide feedback to candidates that they reject This is the long and short of it. In the US at least, discrimination laws are expansive. You can -very- easily end up saying something that violates this and putting your company at risk, no matter how good hearted you were attempting to be.
        dns_snek 1y ago
        How do you "accidentally" end up saying something that implicates you in discrimination on the basis of legally protected characteristics - what are some examples of that? This has always felt like an excuse used by people who who just don't want to be caught in their own lies when asked to come up with a real, non-discriminatory reason.
        Bjartr 1y ago
        Part of it is, if anything can be taken slightly out of context to imply something discriminatory, there are those who will abuse the system and sue. At a large enough scale this can become a real problem. If the company policy is "never say anything" there's nothing to be taken out of context, reducing the chance of a lawsuit. I bet you this comes back to insurance, as many things do in the corporate world. Sufficiently large companies probably have insurance coverage for discrimination lawsuits, or at least employment disputes in general. The coverage probably costs less if you have a "no feedback" policy.
  - dogleash 1y ago
    Who are you trusting as a technical interviewer if you don't already trust them to give negative feedback internally? Do you not code review? Are you a rubber stamp "LGTM" shop that should just be pushing to main but cargo culted the ceremony because github has it built in?
LPisGood 1y ago
> What if you did terribly and I wouldn't hire you in a million years? Do you really want me to tell you that? Yes, that sounds like extremely valuable feedback. Why do you suppose asking a question like that shows narcissism? To me it shows a willingness to infest feedback to improve. I will add the caveat that if someone asked me that in an interview I would likely give a non-answer because I’m not totally sure what all I’m even allowed to say.
- charcircuit 1y ago
  Not everyone will take feedback the same. It's not worth the reputational risk.
etchalon 1y ago
I always tell people how they did. What went right, what went wrong, whether I think they're a good fit and if not, why not. Because I see what happens to my wife when she interviews, and goddamn its brutal.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  I had someone email me after being rejected at the final round of an interview. "Everything seemed to mesh just perfectly, and I'm at a loss to understand." I broke it down for them. "This was nothing to do with you, and we would have had no objection to hiring you. However, the candidate who beat you out simply had more domain experience in XYZ area" and went on to say "For what it's worth, we had 500+ applications, of which we in-depth reviewed 100 resumes, had 40 first-round interviews, 15 second-round, and three final round." They emailed me back to express appreciation and that though this didn't work out, it renewed their confidence to know they didn't "mess something up". Since then, if we're at that point in a process and I'm rejecting you, I'll at least give you something to work with.
  - etchalon 1y ago
    This is so important for people to understand, and its why I give people feedback. People, being humans and prone to pattern seeking, assume that if they didn't get the job, it's something specific they did, or failed to do. And sometimes, that's true. But for a lot of candidates, it just came down to another candidate being slightly better, or slightly cheaper, or some combination of value markers. A lot of my interview feedback comes down to "I don't see any reason you wouldn't be a good fit, but we have other interviews and it's going to come down to value." Some people will take this as me saying "Don't ask for what you're worth," or "we're gonna low-ball your salary." The reality is, we're a business, and if I can produce the same widget with person X or person Y and person X costs 10K less a year, I'm going with person X. Every time.
matheusmoreira 1y ago
A simple request for feedback is not evidence of narcissism or lack of empathy. Could be anxiety. Could be curiosity. Could be zeal. Could be any number of things. It's certainly not an "extreme lack of decorum" though. It's okay to avoid giving feedback if you don't want to. I can think of a few ways to answer that question in a neutral or positive fashion to defuse the situation and legally protect the company.
mock-possum 1y ago
Really?? I always appreciated candidates that would ask that at the end - being willing to step aside from the pretense of professionalism to ask a real question and listen to my answer is a signal to me that this is someone who is willing to be real with me, not pretentious or perfunctory. I do get what you’re saying, but I disagree, there is a good answer; and as is often the case, it’s an honest one.
strken 1y ago
Don't take this the wrong way, but I deliberately ask how I did because it helps me weed out interviewers who think like this. Not so much "how did I do?" as "now we're close to the end of the interview, do you think we're a good fit for each other?" I give my own feedback and talk honestly about points of friction. I interview pretty well, but if I go into an interview with a company that wants hungry hustlers and I've spent the whole interview talking about kindness and team spirit, or if you think I don't know enough pl/pgsql to deal with your gnarly legacy backend, or I'm getting the vibe that none of the engineers seem to like working here, then we need to speak honestly about that.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  > we need to speak honestly about that No need. Just walk away. Remember: You are interviewing them, just as they are interviewing you. Any company worth its weight will not allow red flags to leak into the interview process, e.g., "getting the vibe that none of the engineers seem to like working here". So many times, I have reached the final round of an interview process, met the senior manager... and thought: "Barf, I don't want to work for that person. What a waste of my time."
  - strken 1y ago
    I know I'm interviewing them. That's why we need to talk. If they wanted to hire me enough to interview me, but at the end of a half-day of interviewing I'm going to walk away without a job, then they need to rewrite their position description so I know not to apply, deal with their morale problem, or directly ask me how much PL/pgSQL I've done. We both stand to benefit from talking about how the interview went.
- whatevertrevor 1y ago
  But you also need to factor in their position in the situation right? Like suppose they do hate their job. Do you expect them to speak that plainly and honestly to every candidate who asks "So how do you like working here?" and risk getting that posted to the front page of HN? You're asking them to risk their own livelihood so you get a better signal for your own job search, that doesn't seem like a proportional trade to me. Obviously I'm not advocating for complete opaqueness, but your interviewer is hardly ever in a good position to part with their true feelings towards questions like "How did I do compared to other candidates? How is it truly working here?" I've basically almost always given direct and obvious non-answer to the first question: "I cannot tell you right now, because I'll need to write down and collate my thoughts. And I'm not allowed to share feedback directly, so your recruiter will be in touch with the feedback afterwards."
roncesvalles 1y ago
Not to mention there are legal liabilities with sharing interview performance with candidates. "Oh but the interviewers told me I did extremely well on their interviews. Therefore it must be the case that I was rejected because of ${protected attribute X}."
Bluescreenbuddy 1y ago
Yes we want to know. Framing this as an empathy issue when in reality you're just to afraid to be honest or afraid of any kind of conflict IS an empathy issue. At that point they're not a person. They're an annoyance that you want gone immediately.
Cypher 1y ago
I would because accept honest, authentic feedback that would support my efforts.
dns_snek 1y ago
> asking a question like that shows real narcissism imo. Precisely the opposite. Asking for criticism and genuinely being interested in what others think of you with the goal of taking the feedback on board and improving is the polar opposite of typical narcissistic behavior. As far as I'm aware that sort of self-reflection is inherently incompatible with NPD.
thebruce87m 1y ago
> Yes on this: It reminds me of when candidates ask me how they did at the end of the interview. It shows an extreme lack of decorum and empathy. If my interviewer stumbled over this it would be a red flag.

thaumaturgy 1y ago

Conversely, if you can't handle some straightforward feedback to a candidate that took the time to interview you without violating decorum or hurting their feelings, then how can I expect you to be a good manager or supervisor? How are you possibly going to be able to handle minor personnel conflicts or provide guidance during the training period? It comes across as a complete lack of basic managerial skills.

theamk 1y ago
Supervisors/manages don't usually do coding interviews though, especially in bigger orgs. There is usually a separate interview stage with some sort of manager, and those usually have no coding.
- thaumaturgy 1y ago
  Okay, but basic interpersonal skills are a prerequisite for anybody in a senior or team lead position, or any position that will involve code reviews. I'm sympathetic to how awkward it can feel to provide honest feedback to a candidate, but look: we're all people here. I think we forget that sometimes when we're assembling hiring processes. As a candidate, you need some kind of feedback mechanism that allows you to improve even if you're not a good fit for a particular organization. And if you're involved in the hiring process in any way, you ought to be equipped to handle that.
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    > you need some kind of feedback mechanism that allows you to improve even if you're not a good fit for a particular organization "Need". That is a strong term. I disagree. It would be nice, but it is not a need. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam on HN. In most companies, there is specific company policy that prohibits providing feedback to candidates. There is literally no upside for these companies to provide feedback to candidates that they reject (except Fake/Feel-Good Internet Points, only redeemable on HN forums). Really: There is no way around it, no matter how many tears are spilled about it on HN.
    - silisili 1y ago
      > In most companies, there is specific company policy that prohibits providing feedback to candidates. There is literally no upside for these companies to provide feedback to candidates that they reject This is the long and short of it. In the US at least, discrimination laws are expansive. You can -very- easily end up saying something that violates this and putting your company at risk, no matter how good hearted you were attempting to be.
      - dns_snek 1y ago
        How do you "accidentally" end up saying something that implicates you in discrimination on the basis of legally protected characteristics - what are some examples of that? This has always felt like an excuse used by people who who just don't want to be caught in their own lies when asked to come up with a real, non-discriminatory reason.
        Bjartr 1y ago
        Part of it is, if anything can be taken slightly out of context to imply something discriminatory, there are those who will abuse the system and sue. At a large enough scale this can become a real problem. If the company policy is "never say anything" there's nothing to be taken out of context, reducing the chance of a lawsuit. I bet you this comes back to insurance, as many things do in the corporate world. Sufficiently large companies probably have insurance coverage for discrimination lawsuits, or at least employment disputes in general. The coverage probably costs less if you have a "no feedback" policy.
- dogleash 1y ago
  Who are you trusting as a technical interviewer if you don't already trust them to give negative feedback internally? Do you not code review? Are you a rubber stamp "LGTM" shop that should just be pushing to main but cargo culted the ceremony because github has it built in?

LPisGood 1y ago

> What if you did terribly and I wouldn't hire you in a million years? Do you really want me to tell you that? Yes, that sounds like extremely valuable feedback. Why do you suppose asking a question like that shows narcissism? To me it shows a willingness to infest feedback to improve. I will add the caveat that if someone asked me that in an interview I would likely give a non-answer because I’m not totally sure what all I’m even allowed to say.

charcircuit 1y ago
Not everyone will take feedback the same. It's not worth the reputational risk.

etchalon 1y ago

I always tell people how they did. What went right, what went wrong, whether I think they're a good fit and if not, why not. Because I see what happens to my wife when she interviews, and goddamn its brutal.

FireBeyond 1y ago
I had someone email me after being rejected at the final round of an interview. "Everything seemed to mesh just perfectly, and I'm at a loss to understand." I broke it down for them. "This was nothing to do with you, and we would have had no objection to hiring you. However, the candidate who beat you out simply had more domain experience in XYZ area" and went on to say "For what it's worth, we had 500+ applications, of which we in-depth reviewed 100 resumes, had 40 first-round interviews, 15 second-round, and three final round." They emailed me back to express appreciation and that though this didn't work out, it renewed their confidence to know they didn't "mess something up". Since then, if we're at that point in a process and I'm rejecting you, I'll at least give you something to work with.
- etchalon 1y ago
  This is so important for people to understand, and its why I give people feedback. People, being humans and prone to pattern seeking, assume that if they didn't get the job, it's something specific they did, or failed to do. And sometimes, that's true. But for a lot of candidates, it just came down to another candidate being slightly better, or slightly cheaper, or some combination of value markers. A lot of my interview feedback comes down to "I don't see any reason you wouldn't be a good fit, but we have other interviews and it's going to come down to value." Some people will take this as me saying "Don't ask for what you're worth," or "we're gonna low-ball your salary." The reality is, we're a business, and if I can produce the same widget with person X or person Y and person X costs 10K less a year, I'm going with person X. Every time.

matheusmoreira 1y ago

A simple request for feedback is not evidence of narcissism or lack of empathy. Could be anxiety. Could be curiosity. Could be zeal. Could be any number of things. It's certainly not an "extreme lack of decorum" though. It's okay to avoid giving feedback if you don't want to. I can think of a few ways to answer that question in a neutral or positive fashion to defuse the situation and legally protect the company.

mock-possum 1y ago

Really?? I always appreciated candidates that would ask that at the end - being willing to step aside from the pretense of professionalism to ask a real question and listen to my answer is a signal to me that this is someone who is willing to be real with me, not pretentious or perfunctory. I do get what you’re saying, but I disagree, there is a good answer; and as is often the case, it’s an honest one.

strken 1y ago

Don't take this the wrong way, but I deliberately ask how I did because it helps me weed out interviewers who think like this. Not so much "how did I do?" as "now we're close to the end of the interview, do you think we're a good fit for each other?" I give my own feedback and talk honestly about points of friction. I interview pretty well, but if I go into an interview with a company that wants hungry hustlers and I've spent the whole interview talking about kindness and team spirit, or if you think I don't know enough pl/pgsql to deal with your gnarly legacy backend, or I'm getting the vibe that none of the engineers seem to like working here, then we need to speak honestly about that.

throwaway2037 1y ago
> we need to speak honestly about that No need. Just walk away. Remember: You are interviewing them, just as they are interviewing you. Any company worth its weight will not allow red flags to leak into the interview process, e.g., "getting the vibe that none of the engineers seem to like working here". So many times, I have reached the final round of an interview process, met the senior manager... and thought: "Barf, I don't want to work for that person. What a waste of my time."
- strken 1y ago
  I know I'm interviewing them. That's why we need to talk. If they wanted to hire me enough to interview me, but at the end of a half-day of interviewing I'm going to walk away without a job, then they need to rewrite their position description so I know not to apply, deal with their morale problem, or directly ask me how much PL/pgSQL I've done. We both stand to benefit from talking about how the interview went.
whatevertrevor 1y ago
But you also need to factor in their position in the situation right? Like suppose they do hate their job. Do you expect them to speak that plainly and honestly to every candidate who asks "So how do you like working here?" and risk getting that posted to the front page of HN? You're asking them to risk their own livelihood so you get a better signal for your own job search, that doesn't seem like a proportional trade to me. Obviously I'm not advocating for complete opaqueness, but your interviewer is hardly ever in a good position to part with their true feelings towards questions like "How did I do compared to other candidates? How is it truly working here?" I've basically almost always given direct and obvious non-answer to the first question: "I cannot tell you right now, because I'll need to write down and collate my thoughts. And I'm not allowed to share feedback directly, so your recruiter will be in touch with the feedback afterwards."

roncesvalles 1y ago

Not to mention there are legal liabilities with sharing interview performance with candidates. "Oh but the interviewers told me I did extremely well on their interviews. Therefore it must be the case that I was rejected because of ${protected attribute X}."

Bluescreenbuddy 1y ago

Yes we want to know. Framing this as an empathy issue when in reality you're just to afraid to be honest or afraid of any kind of conflict IS an empathy issue. At that point they're not a person. They're an annoyance that you want gone immediately.

Cypher 1y ago

I would because accept honest, authentic feedback that would support my efforts.

dns_snek 1y ago

> asking a question like that shows real narcissism imo. Precisely the opposite. Asking for criticism and genuinely being interested in what others think of you with the goal of taking the feedback on board and improving is the polar opposite of typical narcissistic behavior. As far as I'm aware that sort of self-reflection is inherently incompatible with NPD.

thebruce87m 1y ago

> Yes on this: It reminds me of when candidates ask me how they did at the end of the interview. It shows an extreme lack of decorum and empathy. If my interviewer stumbled over this it would be a red flag.