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Arm is making huge gains though — five years ago they had less than 5%. The future of x86 is not bright.

baq 1y ago
x86 vs arm doesn’t matter. Hardware matters. Intel needs to make the best cpu again. It can be x86, it can be arm, it can be risc-v.
- adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
  Arm vs x86 matters a lot for Intel since they don't make Arm CPUs. x86 used to be a massive moat for Intel/AMD. The rise of ARM market-share means that that moat is draining. 10 years ago, AMD and IBM were the only competition (and they were both in rough shape). Now Intel is competing against AMD, NVidia, Qualcom, Amazon, and Arm. Even if Intel can make the best CPU again, they no longer can charge monopoly prices for it. If you have a 10% faster CPU, that only lets you charge a small premium over everyone else.
  - genewitch 1y ago
    There's an Arm cpu in every Intel CPU in ring 0 or -1, it boots a modified MINIX. So Intel knows a bit about ARM.
    - tremon 1y ago
      More than a bit, Intel actually produced ARM processors for a decade. The XScale line of processors was sold to Marvell in 2006, and that knowledge has probably atrophied since then. Intel used to build their network interface cards around an XScale core, not sure what they're using now.
    - yencabulator 1y ago
      Wikipedia says the Intel ME has been an x86 since Skylake (2015), and before that it was ARC not ARM. AMD is the one using an ARM core for that functionality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Processor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Processo...
      - genewitch 1y ago
        i don't think the manufacturers would share what arch their deeply embedded cores are. Christopher Domas was the first person to interact with what he calls ring -4 to escalate from ring 3 to ring 0. the processors were old, and the ring -4 is not x86. I'm looking at a slide from 2019 that says that IME is a physically separate, non-x86 processor that boots minix Now, i may be misremembering and i don't have time today to download all his talks and grep the .vtt for "ARM"; however, my memory is reinforced by literally 30 seconds of internet searches. i bought the Minix book because of one of the presentations. i'm not doing any more research for free on this. Even if it isn't ARM, it isn't x86.
        yencabulator 1y ago
        Uh-huh. Meanwhile, people reverse engineering the firmware are repeatedly saying it's x86. For example, https://puri.sm/posts/deep-dive-into-intel-me-disablement/ https://puri.sm/posts/deep-dive-into-intel-me-disablement/ Are you perhaps looking at some slides from Cyber@UC Meeting 81, held Jan 16 2019, located at https://www.cyberatuc.org/files/slides/meeting_081.pdf https://www.cyberatuc.org/files/slides/meeting_081.pdf which clearly say > Physically separate processor embedded within the x86 processor that runs a custom MINIX image and misreading that as saying more than what it does? And those slides link to more resources saying it's an x86.
        genewitch 1y ago
        fine, you win. every bit of the CPU in an intel CPU is 100% x86. nevermind that the thing i am talking about is more "deeply embedded" than the management engine, has access to all registers, etc. oh and is specified to be RISC. I guess technically x86 is RISC, so... you win.
        yencabulator 1y ago
        Also running MINIX, and being physically separate? That's what you tried to quote as your proof. And somehow this processor would also not be on the target list for Coreboot/Libreboot/Purism/Google people trying to de-ME their hardware? Mr. Occam says I have very little reason to trust your recall/judgement, at this time.

baq 1y ago

x86 vs arm doesn’t matter. Hardware matters. Intel needs to make the best cpu again. It can be x86, it can be arm, it can be risc-v.

adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
Arm vs x86 matters a lot for Intel since they don't make Arm CPUs. x86 used to be a massive moat for Intel/AMD. The rise of ARM market-share means that that moat is draining. 10 years ago, AMD and IBM were the only competition (and they were both in rough shape). Now Intel is competing against AMD, NVidia, Qualcom, Amazon, and Arm. Even if Intel can make the best CPU again, they no longer can charge monopoly prices for it. If you have a 10% faster CPU, that only lets you charge a small premium over everyone else.
- genewitch 1y ago
  There's an Arm cpu in every Intel CPU in ring 0 or -1, it boots a modified MINIX. So Intel knows a bit about ARM.
  - tremon 1y ago
    More than a bit, Intel actually produced ARM processors for a decade. The XScale line of processors was sold to Marvell in 2006, and that knowledge has probably atrophied since then. Intel used to build their network interface cards around an XScale core, not sure what they're using now.
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    Wikipedia says the Intel ME has been an x86 since Skylake (2015), and before that it was ARC not ARM. AMD is the one using an ARM core for that functionality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Processor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Processo...
    - genewitch 1y ago
      i don't think the manufacturers would share what arch their deeply embedded cores are. Christopher Domas was the first person to interact with what he calls ring -4 to escalate from ring 3 to ring 0. the processors were old, and the ring -4 is not x86. I'm looking at a slide from 2019 that says that IME is a physically separate, non-x86 processor that boots minix Now, i may be misremembering and i don't have time today to download all his talks and grep the .vtt for "ARM"; however, my memory is reinforced by literally 30 seconds of internet searches. i bought the Minix book because of one of the presentations. i'm not doing any more research for free on this. Even if it isn't ARM, it isn't x86.
      - yencabulator 1y ago
        Uh-huh. Meanwhile, people reverse engineering the firmware are repeatedly saying it's x86. For example, https://puri.sm/posts/deep-dive-into-intel-me-disablement/ https://puri.sm/posts/deep-dive-into-intel-me-disablement/ Are you perhaps looking at some slides from Cyber@UC Meeting 81, held Jan 16 2019, located at https://www.cyberatuc.org/files/slides/meeting_081.pdf https://www.cyberatuc.org/files/slides/meeting_081.pdf which clearly say > Physically separate processor embedded within the x86 processor that runs a custom MINIX image and misreading that as saying more than what it does? And those slides link to more resources saying it's an x86.
        genewitch 1y ago
        fine, you win. every bit of the CPU in an intel CPU is 100% x86. nevermind that the thing i am talking about is more "deeply embedded" than the management engine, has access to all registers, etc. oh and is specified to be RISC. I guess technically x86 is RISC, so... you win.
        yencabulator 1y ago
        Also running MINIX, and being physically separate? That's what you tried to quote as your proof. And somehow this processor would also not be on the target list for Coreboot/Libreboot/Purism/Google people trying to de-ME their hardware? Mr. Occam says I have very little reason to trust your recall/judgement, at this time.