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This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Profess

This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Professional Managerial Class" in the United States, due to fears that a version of James Burnham's prediction[1] would come true. When this discourse comes up on sites like Twitter, and people ask why we're doing it, supporters of these cuts ultimately lay the blame at the feet of two camps: Campus protesters and the response to COVID (Masking, vaccine mandates, etc). I think for some people, those things were so traumatic the entire system needed to be torn down. I think the former is mostly harmless and the latter was necessary, but the faction in power doesn't see things that way - and the dissolution of scientific power in the US is how they're going to feel secure again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Managerial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Managerial_Revolution

AtlasBarfed 1y ago
Does the book describe how there's a professional managerial class that took over higher education inflating its costs, degrading its services, undermining its ideals, watering down it's standards? Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt.
- iFire 1y ago
  No standards or research if NSF and NIST are gutted.
- GenZ_RiseUp 1y ago
  And dare I add to your points - actually fail students when their standard of work is not good enough? There seems to be no repercussions regarding poor quality work in the current MBA/business management undergrad space (I only speak to these, as I familiar with them) with an attitude of (actively enabled by colleges) pass entitlement and grade inflation from the students.
  - spamizbad 1y ago
    How is cutting cancer research funding going to produce more a robust and academically rigorous MBA program? The correlation seems to work the other way, based on MBA program rankings: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/mba-rankings https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-sc...
- spamizbad 1y ago
  > Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt. Can you explain how cutting research funding achieve these goal? Especially since many of the schools most impacted by these cuts are very much not party or college sports schools. Those most impacted are R1 schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_universities_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_universities_...
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    Cutting administration achieves these goals. (It's not the skyrocketing number of tenured professors that is driving college costs.) Now, do you have to cut research in order to cut administration? Research takes a lot of administration, but that should be paid for by the research, not by the students.
    - fluidcruft 1y ago
      It seems like capping indirect rates achieves the goal of defunding administrative bloat while preserving funding to the actual research?
      - jhbadger 1y ago
        No. Indirect costs on grants aren't some slush fund used to fund whatever but are real costs involved in doing science. It costs money to build lab facilities, maintain and repair lab equipment, pay salaries of support staff like IT folks and lab techs. If indirect costs get capped, more of the actual grant will have be used for these things and less science will get done.
        fluidcruft 1y ago
        Included in this overhead is administrative staff salaries and administration's facilities that researchers themselves have no control over. That's all spending controlled by research administrators and the institutions administrative layers that control research including decisions about who they hire for administrative roles and various aspects of strategic planning.
- dashundchen 1y ago
  > Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt. That's not really what the current Trump/GOP/Desantis policy, if you could call it that, is about. It's about weaponizing funding to exert direct government control on what is taught and how it operates. Government approved speech only. The current admin's letter to Harvard demanded governmenr direct control over department operation, course materials and teaching staff They pitch this to thir base as revenge on "woke", because they've primed their base, the majority of whom have never attended college, or have not stepped foot on a campus in decades, to distrust educational institutions.
- Garlef 1y ago
  Drinking has been an integral part of universities for a long, long time.
roxolotl 1y ago
I think the trauma argument is spot on here. The pandemic exposed the tenuous nature of the system we all exist in and for many that was simply too much. It is a deeply disconcerting thing to really sit with the knowledge that we depend upon systems so complex that no single person can fix or manage or describe them and that small perturbations can cause damage that is visible to everyone. When that was all laid bare during the pandemic the reaction was to demand that "we" take back the power to control the system. For some this meant quietly covering the system back up, for others it means tearing it down and rebuilding it. Of course that isn't to excuse the system, or blame the trauma. Traumatic reactions to mass death, dislocation, and disruption are expected. The system is also very far from perfect. However typically rational and effective solutions don't come from responses like we're seeing.
- spacemadness 1y ago
  And we never really mourned the deaths of the people that died of covid so far collectively. I still find this weird.
reubenswartz 1y ago
There are plenty of real issues with higher education, but the attacks on research are using protests and other things as a fig leaf. We've seen this movie before, when Germany destroyed the world's leading research university system in the name of control and ideology. Most people would not want to repeat that, while it seems some in power feel differently.
- MisterTea 1y ago
  > while it seems some in power feel differently. They have so much money they dont think anything can ever happen to them save for having their money taken away by some boogeyman. Everything else is a problem for the poors.
noobermin 1y ago
You do know the "current admin" is the managerial class right? It's just a different faction of it.
thisisit 1y ago
> the response to COVID (Masking, vaccine mandates, etc) This is something which I find quite saddening. The ire seemed to be directed at "scientists". The funny/sad part happens whenever you try to concede and say - Lets concede that scientists were wrong. How was the handling from POTUS at that time? People start getting into whataboutism. The most sad part is that they think POTUS is simultaneously responsible for Project Warp Speed and also that fast approval made the vaccine suspect.

AtlasBarfed 1y ago

Does the book describe how there's a professional managerial class that took over higher education inflating its costs, degrading its services, undermining its ideals, watering down it's standards? Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt.

iFire 1y ago
No standards or research if NSF and NIST are gutted.
GenZ_RiseUp 1y ago
And dare I add to your points - actually fail students when their standard of work is not good enough? There seems to be no repercussions regarding poor quality work in the current MBA/business management undergrad space (I only speak to these, as I familiar with them) with an attitude of (actively enabled by colleges) pass entitlement and grade inflation from the students.
- spamizbad 1y ago
  How is cutting cancer research funding going to produce more a robust and academically rigorous MBA program? The correlation seems to work the other way, based on MBA program rankings: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/mba-rankings https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-sc...
spamizbad 1y ago
> Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt. Can you explain how cutting research funding achieve these goal? Especially since many of the schools most impacted by these cuts are very much not party or college sports schools. Those most impacted are R1 schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_universities_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_universities_...
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  Cutting administration achieves these goals. (It's not the skyrocketing number of tenured professors that is driving college costs.) Now, do you have to cut research in order to cut administration? Research takes a lot of administration, but that should be paid for by the research, not by the students.
  - fluidcruft 1y ago
    It seems like capping indirect rates achieves the goal of defunding administrative bloat while preserving funding to the actual research?
    - jhbadger 1y ago
      No. Indirect costs on grants aren't some slush fund used to fund whatever but are real costs involved in doing science. It costs money to build lab facilities, maintain and repair lab equipment, pay salaries of support staff like IT folks and lab techs. If indirect costs get capped, more of the actual grant will have be used for these things and less science will get done.
      - fluidcruft 1y ago
        Included in this overhead is administrative staff salaries and administration's facilities that researchers themselves have no control over. That's all spending controlled by research administrators and the institutions administrative layers that control research including decisions about who they hire for administrative roles and various aspects of strategic planning.
dashundchen 1y ago
> Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt. That's not really what the current Trump/GOP/Desantis policy, if you could call it that, is about. It's about weaponizing funding to exert direct government control on what is taught and how it operates. Government approved speech only. The current admin's letter to Harvard demanded governmenr direct control over department operation, course materials and teaching staff They pitch this to thir base as revenge on "woke", because they've primed their base, the majority of whom have never attended college, or have not stepped foot on a campus in decades, to distrust educational institutions.
Garlef 1y ago
Drinking has been an integral part of universities for a long, long time.

roxolotl 1y ago

I think the trauma argument is spot on here. The pandemic exposed the tenuous nature of the system we all exist in and for many that was simply too much. It is a deeply disconcerting thing to really sit with the knowledge that we depend upon systems so complex that no single person can fix or manage or describe them and that small perturbations can cause damage that is visible to everyone. When that was all laid bare during the pandemic the reaction was to demand that "we" take back the power to control the system. For some this meant quietly covering the system back up, for others it means tearing it down and rebuilding it. Of course that isn't to excuse the system, or blame the trauma. Traumatic reactions to mass death, dislocation, and disruption are expected. The system is also very far from perfect. However typically rational and effective solutions don't come from responses like we're seeing.

spacemadness 1y ago
And we never really mourned the deaths of the people that died of covid so far collectively. I still find this weird.

reubenswartz 1y ago

There are plenty of real issues with higher education, but the attacks on research are using protests and other things as a fig leaf. We've seen this movie before, when Germany destroyed the world's leading research university system in the name of control and ideology. Most people would not want to repeat that, while it seems some in power feel differently.

MisterTea 1y ago
> while it seems some in power feel differently. They have so much money they dont think anything can ever happen to them save for having their money taken away by some boogeyman. Everything else is a problem for the poors.

noobermin 1y ago

You do know the "current admin" is the managerial class right? It's just a different faction of it.

thisisit 1y ago

> the response to COVID (Masking, vaccine mandates, etc) This is something which I find quite saddening. The ire seemed to be directed at "scientists". The funny/sad part happens whenever you try to concede and say - Lets concede that scientists were wrong. How was the handling from POTUS at that time? People start getting into whataboutism. The most sad part is that they think POTUS is simultaneously responsible for Project Warp Speed and also that fast approval made the vaccine suspect.