4 ms·

Only tangentially related, but I'm always fascinated that mailing lists are still a thing in 2025.

teddyh 1y ago
Please, inform us of an alternative which is: • Non-proprietary • Federated • Archivable • Accessible • Not dependent on a specific company
- Trasmatta 1y ago
  I wasn't criticizing the use of them, I just find it fascinating that we still use them. They'll probably still be around in some form in another 3 decades.
  - walterbell 1y ago
    Email is a root-of-trust for authentication in most non-email systems.
- zoobab 1y ago
  GIT promised to be "Non-proprietary, Decentralized" but still does not have a built-in issue tracker :-)
  - HappMacDonald 1y ago
    GIT is non-proprietary and decentralized so it keeps that promise. And having a built-in issue tracker 1. isn't related to those properties, and 2. isn't truly within the scope of a source code version control management solution. That's the domain of project management.
  - somat 1y ago
    Shouldn't the git native issue tracker be as simple as adding file pr/the_problem_i_am_having
    - badmintonbaseba 1y ago
      Issues shouldn't really live in the same source tree, IMO. But AFAIK there are forges that keep the issues in the same repository, just not in the same tree of commits that the source tree has, git notes style.
    - rixed 1y ago
      Any user without commit permission should be able to create tickets and comment on them. What's wrong with debbugs? :)
  - delfinom 1y ago
    For large projects like the Linux kernel as an example out of many, I would assume the built-in issue tracker would end up 100x the size of the code base in storage space. lol
  - graemep 1y ago
    Fossil has one. If its something you want use Fossil - which I think is a great alternative for small teams, on the other hand, this is probably not something large teams (which are a high priority for git) want.
  - jbaber 1y ago
    If I ever get around to writing my git issue tracker, everything will be stored in a completely separate reponame-issues.git
- Eduard 1y ago
  - horrible usability - can only participate in conversations via e-mails - unclear how to participate in / reply to an older thread that wasn't delivered to your mailbox - NOT accessible, especially in the disabilities sense - doesn't have a search feature; depends on external search engines to crawl the mailing list for discoverability - no responsive design, tiny text and horizontal scrolling on mobile phone screens - sends you your password in cleartext via e-mail - actually complicated to unsubscribe from a list / manage your membership
  - teddyh 1y ago
    > - horrible usability The web has horrible usability if you use a text-based browser. I.e. if you use a mail reader with good usability, a mailing list has good usability. This is a client-side issue, not a technology issue. > - can only participate in conversations via e-mails Um, yes, a mailing list uses e-mail. I don’t know what you expected. > - unclear how to participate in / reply to an older thread that wasn't delivered to your mailbox If you are a new user, and want to reply to a mail you read in the list archive, just write a new mail; there is no strict rule that any discussions must be restricted to one thread. Indeed, if you want to start a new discussion after some time has elapsed, a new thread may be preferred. > - NOT accessible, especially in the disabilities sense Again, this is a client issue. I believe that e-mail is actually the preferred form for those with accessibility needs. > - doesn't have a search feature; depends on external search engines to crawl the mailing list for discoverability Somewhat true, but this depends on the list – some list archives do feature search – and is very rarely a problem in practice, since external search engines are very efficient. > - no responsive design, tiny text and horizontal scrolling on mobile phone screens Again, a client issue. Get a better e-mail client. > - sends you your password in cleartext via e-mail Yes, many lists do this, but this is not a requirement of the technology. Some lists could require all your mails to be signed with PGP or S/MIME; it is entirely up to the list. > - actually complicated to unsubscribe from a list / manage your membership Not really. The ”List-Unsubscribe” header is commonly sent in every mail to the list.
KolmogorovComp 1y ago
My qualm against them is rather different. Why, after so much time, are they still so user-hostile, both in their web appearance and more generally usage? It's rhetorical of course, it's because their users are completely blind to their pitfalls after decades of use, and it seems that generation-renewal is not a priority. Discord servers and other contemporary solutions are much worse on the long run, but it does not matter. Software is like startups, long term is not a goal when you are not sure to survive (or in that case, being used and having contributors) next week.
- skydhash 1y ago
  I don’t think GitHub adds that much over using and contributing to software. I generally prefer when the project have its own website and a proper about and documentation section. As far as contributing go, coding a bug fix or a new features takes way longer than figuring how sending patch over mail works (for the extreme case) and you only need to do it once. And opensource is not a popularity contest.
- jzb 1y ago
  "Discord servers and other contemporary solutions are much worse on the long run, but it does not matter. Software is like startups, long term is not a goal when you are not sure to survive (or in that case, being used and having contributors) next week." I don't think I've read anything that I disagree with so strongly in a while. "Software is like startups" is about as user and contributor-hostile a concept as they come. The long term absolutely matters and projects choosing convenience today over long-term thinking are screwing over their future. It's damn near impossible to find information about these projects outside the proprietary silos they've dug themselves into and they will regret the choice one of these days when Discord or whatever proprietary service starts tightening the screws to make money. I'm not sure what you find hostile about their web appearance. It's a light, clean page with text that doesn't throw tons of JS at you, pop-ups, or a cookie accept/reject/ponder bullshit dialog. It could use a bit of a copy edit / redo and a screenshot (I always complain when a project doesn't have screenshots...), but I don't find it hostile in the least.
  - 1y ago
immibis 1y ago
A mailing list is just a kind of public group chat. You're probably in many public group chats, including this one right now. Mailing lists, IRC, traditional web forums, Discord, WhatsApp are all implementations of the same basic concept. Like any implementation, it comes with certain affordances which differ from other implementations. Messages feel "heavy" for several reasons: sending one involves a lot of clicks (or keypresses); if you send a very high number you may be banned from your email provider, and unable to communicate with anyone. Messages often arrive instantly, but can be delayed up to hours or days, so conversation round-trips are kept to a minimum. Messages are all the same - there are no "lite messages" such as emoji reactions - so any message must contain enough content to justify being a full-fledged message, or it won't be sent at all. (Sometimes an "emoji reaction" is felt to be enough content to justify a full-fledged message, which is sent.) Being off the web increases the barrier to entry, reducing the eternal september effect (ironically, Usenet is one of the least eternal-september-ish of the public discussion boards currently in existence). Overall, the feel of the system tends to somewhat discourage quantity and encourage per-message quality.
- WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
  > Messages are all the same - there are no "lite messages" such as emoji reactions - so any message must contain enough content to justify being a full-fledged message, or it won't be sent at all. (Sometimes an "emoji reaction" is felt to be enough content to justify a full-fledged message, which is sent.) Haven't you heard about the abomination which is Office365? They recently bolted emoji reactions onto email!

Please, inform us of an alternative which is: • Non-proprietary • Federated • Archivable • Accessible • Not dependent on a specific company

Trasmatta 1y ago
I wasn't criticizing the use of them, I just find it fascinating that we still use them. They'll probably still be around in some form in another 3 decades.
- walterbell 1y ago
  Email is a root-of-trust for authentication in most non-email systems.
zoobab 1y ago
GIT promised to be "Non-proprietary, Decentralized" but still does not have a built-in issue tracker :-)
- HappMacDonald 1y ago
  GIT is non-proprietary and decentralized so it keeps that promise. And having a built-in issue tracker 1. isn't related to those properties, and 2. isn't truly within the scope of a source code version control management solution. That's the domain of project management.
- somat 1y ago
  Shouldn't the git native issue tracker be as simple as adding file pr/the_problem_i_am_having
  - badmintonbaseba 1y ago
    Issues shouldn't really live in the same source tree, IMO. But AFAIK there are forges that keep the issues in the same repository, just not in the same tree of commits that the source tree has, git notes style.
  - rixed 1y ago
    Any user without commit permission should be able to create tickets and comment on them. What's wrong with debbugs? :)
- delfinom 1y ago
  For large projects like the Linux kernel as an example out of many, I would assume the built-in issue tracker would end up 100x the size of the code base in storage space. lol
- graemep 1y ago
  Fossil has one. If its something you want use Fossil - which I think is a great alternative for small teams, on the other hand, this is probably not something large teams (which are a high priority for git) want.
- jbaber 1y ago
  If I ever get around to writing my git issue tracker, everything will be stored in a completely separate reponame-issues.git
Eduard 1y ago
- horrible usability - can only participate in conversations via e-mails - unclear how to participate in / reply to an older thread that wasn't delivered to your mailbox - NOT accessible, especially in the disabilities sense - doesn't have a search feature; depends on external search engines to crawl the mailing list for discoverability - no responsive design, tiny text and horizontal scrolling on mobile phone screens - sends you your password in cleartext via e-mail - actually complicated to unsubscribe from a list / manage your membership
- teddyh 1y ago
  > - horrible usability The web has horrible usability if you use a text-based browser. I.e. if you use a mail reader with good usability, a mailing list has good usability. This is a client-side issue, not a technology issue. > - can only participate in conversations via e-mails Um, yes, a mailing list uses e-mail. I don’t know what you expected. > - unclear how to participate in / reply to an older thread that wasn't delivered to your mailbox If you are a new user, and want to reply to a mail you read in the list archive, just write a new mail; there is no strict rule that any discussions must be restricted to one thread. Indeed, if you want to start a new discussion after some time has elapsed, a new thread may be preferred. > - NOT accessible, especially in the disabilities sense Again, this is a client issue. I believe that e-mail is actually the preferred form for those with accessibility needs. > - doesn't have a search feature; depends on external search engines to crawl the mailing list for discoverability Somewhat true, but this depends on the list – some list archives do feature search – and is very rarely a problem in practice, since external search engines are very efficient. > - no responsive design, tiny text and horizontal scrolling on mobile phone screens Again, a client issue. Get a better e-mail client. > - sends you your password in cleartext via e-mail Yes, many lists do this, but this is not a requirement of the technology. Some lists could require all your mails to be signed with PGP or S/MIME; it is entirely up to the list. > - actually complicated to unsubscribe from a list / manage your membership Not really. The ”List-Unsubscribe” header is commonly sent in every mail to the list.

KolmogorovComp 1y ago

My qualm against them is rather different. Why, after so much time, are they still so user-hostile, both in their web appearance and more generally usage? It's rhetorical of course, it's because their users are completely blind to their pitfalls after decades of use, and it seems that generation-renewal is not a priority. Discord servers and other contemporary solutions are much worse on the long run, but it does not matter. Software is like startups, long term is not a goal when you are not sure to survive (or in that case, being used and having contributors) next week.

skydhash 1y ago
I don’t think GitHub adds that much over using and contributing to software. I generally prefer when the project have its own website and a proper about and documentation section. As far as contributing go, coding a bug fix or a new features takes way longer than figuring how sending patch over mail works (for the extreme case) and you only need to do it once. And opensource is not a popularity contest.
jzb 1y ago
"Discord servers and other contemporary solutions are much worse on the long run, but it does not matter. Software is like startups, long term is not a goal when you are not sure to survive (or in that case, being used and having contributors) next week." I don't think I've read anything that I disagree with so strongly in a while. "Software is like startups" is about as user and contributor-hostile a concept as they come. The long term absolutely matters and projects choosing convenience today over long-term thinking are screwing over their future. It's damn near impossible to find information about these projects outside the proprietary silos they've dug themselves into and they will regret the choice one of these days when Discord or whatever proprietary service starts tightening the screws to make money. I'm not sure what you find hostile about their web appearance. It's a light, clean page with text that doesn't throw tons of JS at you, pop-ups, or a cookie accept/reject/ponder bullshit dialog. It could use a bit of a copy edit / redo and a screenshot (I always complain when a project doesn't have screenshots...), but I don't find it hostile in the least.
- 1y ago

immibis 1y ago

A mailing list is just a kind of public group chat. You're probably in many public group chats, including this one right now. Mailing lists, IRC, traditional web forums, Discord, WhatsApp are all implementations of the same basic concept. Like any implementation, it comes with certain affordances which differ from other implementations. Messages feel "heavy" for several reasons: sending one involves a lot of clicks (or keypresses); if you send a very high number you may be banned from your email provider, and unable to communicate with anyone. Messages often arrive instantly, but can be delayed up to hours or days, so conversation round-trips are kept to a minimum. Messages are all the same - there are no "lite messages" such as emoji reactions - so any message must contain enough content to justify being a full-fledged message, or it won't be sent at all. (Sometimes an "emoji reaction" is felt to be enough content to justify a full-fledged message, which is sent.) Being off the web increases the barrier to entry, reducing the eternal september effect (ironically, Usenet is one of the least eternal-september-ish of the public discussion boards currently in existence). Overall, the feel of the system tends to somewhat discourage quantity and encourage per-message quality.

WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
> Messages are all the same - there are no "lite messages" such as emoji reactions - so any message must contain enough content to justify being a full-fledged message, or it won't be sent at all. (Sometimes an "emoji reaction" is felt to be enough content to justify a full-fledged message, which is sent.) Haven't you heard about the abomination which is Office365? They recently bolted emoji reactions onto email!