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I don't think this is the slam-dunk you think it is. You had to go to three doctors before someone recognized something was wrong. ChatGPT is the substitute for

I don't think this is the slam-dunk you think it is. You had to go to three doctors before someone recognized something was wrong. ChatGPT is the substitute for the first two doctors, not the third. And even there, I bet ChatGPT would have told you to go see a doctor, since it can't feel your balls. And after your first appointment, if you had told it that you still thought something was wrong, it would probably have told you to go see a urologist.

threecheese 1y ago
I fall slightly on the “doomer” side of the safety spectrum, but if I’m being honest I’ll be first in line - rain, sleet, or snow - to buy the chatgpt that can!
slg 1y ago
>And even there, I bet ChatGPT would have told you to go see a doctor So what is the value add of ChatGPT in this scenario? Either it says you don't need to see the doctor which could very well kill you or it tells you to visit the doctor and it doesn't actually help you in any way.
- nerdsniper 1y ago
  The value-add would be getting my insurance to approve me to go see a "specialist" (the urologist) immediately rather than forcing me to schedule an appointment with my primary-care doctor first, paying $200 for the office visit, and delaying care by 2 weeks. So, a technical solution to a bureaucratic problem. Also, even when I'm on a PPO plan instead of HMO...I know when I have a yeast infection. I don't want to pay $100 to tell a doctor that I have a yeast infection. They don't even look at my genitals - they just take my word for it. But I can't buy fluconazole without a prescription. Such a waste of everyone's time and my money. So again, a technical solution to a bureaucratic problem.
  - trollbridge 1y ago
    Get a PPO plan, then? I can go directly to any specialist I want, although I find it’s better to always talk to my PCP first, who then makes a referral and often recommends the specialist she prefers. (If your HMO charges $200 for a PCP visit - wow, I’d look for a different plan.)
    - nerdsniper 1y ago
      My second example was specifically called out as an example of an issue even with PPO's. Also, not everyone (including myself) can easily change jobs or get insurance that simply isn't even offered by the employer. Worth noting that in my state for example, none of the public ACA health insurance options are a PPO.
      - trollbridge 1y ago
        Yeah, it's true that a lot of ACA plans are quite poor right now. The subsidy often isn't really worth it compared to a non-ACA plan.
  - slg 1y ago
    That isn’t value created by the AI, it is valued bestowed on it by your insurance company. They could bestow that same value on a Google search or a call center worker in Southeast Asia and it would provide you the same value. The AI is just making an already convoluted system more convoluted.
- edanm 1y ago
  You're missing the case of it telling you not to see a doctor and it's right, in which you save a lot of time (and potentially money). Mistakes will happen, that's the nature of statistics of this nature. But don't forget that saving 1,000s of people time is worth something, even if you never directly see it like you do the one case that it didn't catch.
  - slg 1y ago
    > But don't forget that saving 1,000s of people time is worth something How many unnecessary deaths does that buy you?
    - edanm 1y ago
      I don't know. But pretending there are no tradeoffs is stupid, and also disconnected from reality.
      - slg 1y ago
        >I don't know. Which invalidates the whole point. There are countless ways that the healthcare industry could save time if it was willing to sacrifice an unknown number of lives. How is this scenario any different from some other arbitrary decision made for the sake of expediency such as doctors deciding to no longer collect medical histories from new patients? Think of all the time that could be saved if you never had to fill out those forms the first time you saw a doctor. Who cares if that leads to more people dying, it saves some time!
        senordevnyc 1y ago
        We’re discussing this on a thread about an attempt to answer that question!
        edanm 1y ago
        When I say "I don't know", it means I genuinely don't know. Obviously, since this is a new technology, it's possible that it is better than doing arbitrary things like saying that people shouldn't fill out forms anymore. You're saying "some change is bad therefore all changes are bad", which is obviously fallacious.
const_cast 1y ago
Right, so as you've pointed out, chatgpt wouldn't have helped me in any way. And, for the record, I was referred to a Urologist. The doctor was able to say "something isn't right but I don't know what" and he referred me to a Urologist and got my ultrasounds. No offense to uh... AI... but it's not very good at being humble. It seems hubris wasn't in the training data. It's quite difficult to get an LLM to say "I don't know". Usually you have to prime it or ask leading questions, which at that point you already know that it doesn't know so therefore trying to elicit that response is worthless.
imiric 1y ago
> I bet ChatGPT would have told you to go see a doctor, since it can't feel your balls. Not _yet_!
jagger27 1y ago
> ChatGPT is the substitute for the first two doctors, not the third. The third doctor used to behave more like the first two. In a world where ChatGPT replaced the rookies, how do we get good doctors?

threecheese 1y ago

I fall slightly on the “doomer” side of the safety spectrum, but if I’m being honest I’ll be first in line - rain, sleet, or snow - to buy the chatgpt that can!

slg 1y ago

>And even there, I bet ChatGPT would have told you to go see a doctor So what is the value add of ChatGPT in this scenario? Either it says you don't need to see the doctor which could very well kill you or it tells you to visit the doctor and it doesn't actually help you in any way.

nerdsniper 1y ago
The value-add would be getting my insurance to approve me to go see a "specialist" (the urologist) immediately rather than forcing me to schedule an appointment with my primary-care doctor first, paying $200 for the office visit, and delaying care by 2 weeks. So, a technical solution to a bureaucratic problem. Also, even when I'm on a PPO plan instead of HMO...I know when I have a yeast infection. I don't want to pay $100 to tell a doctor that I have a yeast infection. They don't even look at my genitals - they just take my word for it. But I can't buy fluconazole without a prescription. Such a waste of everyone's time and my money. So again, a technical solution to a bureaucratic problem.
- trollbridge 1y ago
  Get a PPO plan, then? I can go directly to any specialist I want, although I find it’s better to always talk to my PCP first, who then makes a referral and often recommends the specialist she prefers. (If your HMO charges $200 for a PCP visit - wow, I’d look for a different plan.)
  - nerdsniper 1y ago
    My second example was specifically called out as an example of an issue even with PPO's. Also, not everyone (including myself) can easily change jobs or get insurance that simply isn't even offered by the employer. Worth noting that in my state for example, none of the public ACA health insurance options are a PPO.
    - trollbridge 1y ago
      Yeah, it's true that a lot of ACA plans are quite poor right now. The subsidy often isn't really worth it compared to a non-ACA plan.
- slg 1y ago
  That isn’t value created by the AI, it is valued bestowed on it by your insurance company. They could bestow that same value on a Google search or a call center worker in Southeast Asia and it would provide you the same value. The AI is just making an already convoluted system more convoluted.
edanm 1y ago
You're missing the case of it telling you not to see a doctor and it's right, in which you save a lot of time (and potentially money). Mistakes will happen, that's the nature of statistics of this nature. But don't forget that saving 1,000s of people time is worth something, even if you never directly see it like you do the one case that it didn't catch.
- slg 1y ago
  > But don't forget that saving 1,000s of people time is worth something How many unnecessary deaths does that buy you?
  - edanm 1y ago
    I don't know. But pretending there are no tradeoffs is stupid, and also disconnected from reality.
    - slg 1y ago
      >I don't know. Which invalidates the whole point. There are countless ways that the healthcare industry could save time if it was willing to sacrifice an unknown number of lives. How is this scenario any different from some other arbitrary decision made for the sake of expediency such as doctors deciding to no longer collect medical histories from new patients? Think of all the time that could be saved if you never had to fill out those forms the first time you saw a doctor. Who cares if that leads to more people dying, it saves some time!
      - senordevnyc 1y ago
        We’re discussing this on a thread about an attempt to answer that question!
      - edanm 1y ago
        When I say "I don't know", it means I genuinely don't know. Obviously, since this is a new technology, it's possible that it is better than doing arbitrary things like saying that people shouldn't fill out forms anymore. You're saying "some change is bad therefore all changes are bad", which is obviously fallacious.

const_cast 1y ago

Right, so as you've pointed out, chatgpt wouldn't have helped me in any way. And, for the record, I was referred to a Urologist. The doctor was able to say "something isn't right but I don't know what" and he referred me to a Urologist and got my ultrasounds. No offense to uh... AI... but it's not very good at being humble. It seems hubris wasn't in the training data. It's quite difficult to get an LLM to say "I don't know". Usually you have to prime it or ask leading questions, which at that point you already know that it doesn't know so therefore trying to elicit that response is worthless.

imiric 1y ago

> I bet ChatGPT would have told you to go see a doctor, since it can't feel your balls. Not _yet_!

jagger27 1y ago

> ChatGPT is the substitute for the first two doctors, not the third. The third doctor used to behave more like the first two. In a world where ChatGPT replaced the rookies, how do we get good doctors?