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It's a bit sad that we were never able to solve this problem by designing safer streets, but you're probably right that self-driving cars will end up being the

It's a bit sad that we were never able to solve this problem by designing safer streets, but you're probably right that self-driving cars will end up being the solution in the states.

xnx 1y ago
In the distant future we'll be able to de-design (de-sign?) streets for self-driving cars: no traffic lights, no stop signs, no speed bumps, narrow lanes, fewer lanes, no curbs, no dividers, no street lights, etc.
- goda90 1y ago
  No pedestrian crossings. No bike lanes. No escape from the noise of thousands of tires going at high speed. No escape from the air pollution of eroding tires and brakes. A vision of that future from a skeptic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0
  - xnx 1y ago
    Certainly some unknowns, but I'm optimistic. > No pedestrian crossings. Everywhere is a pedestrian crossing when you know that every vehicle sees you and will slow/stop if it anticipates you will enter its path. > No bike lanes. I'm an urban bike commuter and would be delighted to share the road with autonomous vehicles instead of human-driven ones. > No escape from the noise of thousands of tires going at high speed. I live 60 ft from a highway and would trade the noise of 1 speeding, honking, revving, modified-exhaust having human driven car for 100 well-maintained speed-limit obeying Waymo's. > No escape from the air pollution of eroding tires and brakes. Gentle starts and stops from a well-maintained (e.g. proper tire inflation) autonomous vehicle will create less of both of those than the average human-driven vehicle. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 I like a diversity of viewpoints, and glad there are people advocating for pedestrian and cyclist use of roads, but I find very little I agree with in Not Just Bikes pessimism.
    - goda90 1y ago
      > I live 60 ft from a highway and would trade the noise of 1 speeding, honking, revving, modified-exhaust having human driven car for 100 well-maintained speed-limit obeying Waymo's. The speed limit will certainly be increased if only autonomous vehicles are allowed. It's an easy sell in the city council meetings. I suggest you watch the video. It may be pessimistic but it makes valid arguments worth keeping in mind when considering that future.
      - gs17 1y ago
        > The speed limit will certainly be increased if only autonomous vehicles are allowed. If the vehicles are safe enough to be allowed to drive faster than humans did on the same roads, why not?
        xnx 1y ago
        > why not? Road noise? My concern about road noise from higher-speed EV AV's is much lower than ICE human-driven vehicles at a lower (posted) speed.
        goda90 1y ago
        Tire noise increases with speed and weight. At freeway speeds, tires make 60% of the noise of a typical ICE vehicle[0]. Electric cars are also heavier than ICE vehicle due to the battery. High speed AV only roads would probably have more cars on them too, so even more noise. [0]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-12-hy-wheels12-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-12-hy-wheel...
        xnx 1y ago
        Yes. In my personal road situation I'd be happy to exchange more tire noise (which is more of a consistent white noise) for the abrupt and annoying other car sounds. There's still a chance that net tire noise would be same or less: "Tires running higher inflation pressures generate lower noise levels compared to those with lower inflation levels." https://www.tirereview.com/the-fight-against-tire-noise/ https://www.tirereview.com/the-fight-against-tire-noise/ I suspect that other design choices (e.g. fender skirts like on the Honda Insight) could be made that would further reduce tire noise.
- ginko 1y ago
  How is this supposed to help pedestrians?
  - xnx 1y ago
    Less money spent on car infrastructure means more money available for other priorities. Most people expect widespread use self-driving cars to dramatically decrease the need for parking spots (at homes, apartments, office, stores, along roads, etc.). Parking lots could be turned into parks.
- TulliusCicero 1y ago
  Doubtful we'll get all of this. The reality is that having separation between types of traffic makes a lot of sense even if cars are driven by super safe robots 100% of the time.

It's a bit sad that we were never able to solve this problem by designing safer streets, but you're probably right that self-driving cars will end up being the solution in the states.

xnx 1y ago

In the distant future we'll be able to de-design (de-sign?) streets for self-driving cars: no traffic lights, no stop signs, no speed bumps, narrow lanes, fewer lanes, no curbs, no dividers, no street lights, etc.

goda90 1y ago
No pedestrian crossings. No bike lanes. No escape from the noise of thousands of tires going at high speed. No escape from the air pollution of eroding tires and brakes. A vision of that future from a skeptic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0
- xnx 1y ago
  Certainly some unknowns, but I'm optimistic. > No pedestrian crossings. Everywhere is a pedestrian crossing when you know that every vehicle sees you and will slow/stop if it anticipates you will enter its path. > No bike lanes. I'm an urban bike commuter and would be delighted to share the road with autonomous vehicles instead of human-driven ones. > No escape from the noise of thousands of tires going at high speed. I live 60 ft from a highway and would trade the noise of 1 speeding, honking, revving, modified-exhaust having human driven car for 100 well-maintained speed-limit obeying Waymo's. > No escape from the air pollution of eroding tires and brakes. Gentle starts and stops from a well-maintained (e.g. proper tire inflation) autonomous vehicle will create less of both of those than the average human-driven vehicle. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 I like a diversity of viewpoints, and glad there are people advocating for pedestrian and cyclist use of roads, but I find very little I agree with in Not Just Bikes pessimism.
  - goda90 1y ago
    > I live 60 ft from a highway and would trade the noise of 1 speeding, honking, revving, modified-exhaust having human driven car for 100 well-maintained speed-limit obeying Waymo's. The speed limit will certainly be increased if only autonomous vehicles are allowed. It's an easy sell in the city council meetings. I suggest you watch the video. It may be pessimistic but it makes valid arguments worth keeping in mind when considering that future.
    - gs17 1y ago
      > The speed limit will certainly be increased if only autonomous vehicles are allowed. If the vehicles are safe enough to be allowed to drive faster than humans did on the same roads, why not?
      - xnx 1y ago
        > why not? Road noise? My concern about road noise from higher-speed EV AV's is much lower than ICE human-driven vehicles at a lower (posted) speed.
        goda90 1y ago
        Tire noise increases with speed and weight. At freeway speeds, tires make 60% of the noise of a typical ICE vehicle[0]. Electric cars are also heavier than ICE vehicle due to the battery. High speed AV only roads would probably have more cars on them too, so even more noise. [0]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-12-hy-wheels12-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-12-hy-wheel...
        xnx 1y ago
        Yes. In my personal road situation I'd be happy to exchange more tire noise (which is more of a consistent white noise) for the abrupt and annoying other car sounds. There's still a chance that net tire noise would be same or less: "Tires running higher inflation pressures generate lower noise levels compared to those with lower inflation levels." https://www.tirereview.com/the-fight-against-tire-noise/ https://www.tirereview.com/the-fight-against-tire-noise/ I suspect that other design choices (e.g. fender skirts like on the Honda Insight) could be made that would further reduce tire noise.
ginko 1y ago
How is this supposed to help pedestrians?
- xnx 1y ago
  Less money spent on car infrastructure means more money available for other priorities. Most people expect widespread use self-driving cars to dramatically decrease the need for parking spots (at homes, apartments, office, stores, along roads, etc.). Parking lots could be turned into parks.
TulliusCicero 1y ago
Doubtful we'll get all of this. The reality is that having separation between types of traffic makes a lot of sense even if cars are driven by super safe robots 100% of the time.