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Visa/Mastercard have enough power to enforce this on their own. Although obviously regulation would've been better. If a bunch of elected officials wrote lette

Visa/Mastercard have enough power to enforce this on their own. Although obviously regulation would've been better. If a bunch of elected officials wrote letters to execs and a couple of NYT articles were written about the issue, Visa/Mastercard might be motivated to help.

drdec 1y ago
I, for one, do not want to encourage Visa/Mastercard to use their market position to enforce policies. What they have already done is damage enough.
sorcerer-mar 1y ago
Why? They get revenue from unwanted transactions too.
- doctoboggan 1y ago
  Those transactions might have a higher than normal chargeback rate which could motivate them to get rid of them. It could also be a perk of the card, they could provide a subscription cancellation portal on their website.
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    That would definitely be a huge perk to me!
- dspillett 1y ago
  Chargebacks might upset that being a big benefit, and being the firm that takes a stance for customer care could be good advertising fodder. Though I don't see it working unless they both do it in step which minimises the useful effect of that against each other. It could still be a benefit vs other payment methods, what is PayPal's policy on such things?
  - n_ary 1y ago
    Number of people afraid to pickup the phone and talk to another human being instead of letting few hundred in forgotten subscription is larger than I previously thought. By that sense, without any data, I suspect that chargeback amount is wayyyy smaller headache compared to txn fees from forgotten uncancelled subscriptions.
    - JohnMakin 1y ago
      It has nothing to do with fear. Have you ever tried to call in and cancel one of these services? If you're even able to find the right number to reach anyone, or after you've already waited an absurdly long time to do so, you'll be transferred around until you get frustrated and give up, or be subjected to extremely aggressive sales tactics trying to pressure you to stay on. I got to the point with one of those DNA sites where I had to ask about next steps for legal action to the representative before they'd even consider getting to the step where I could cancel my subscription - and even after that, still got charged and had to call again. It's maybe comforting to think "oh, people just don't want to call, they'd rather eat the fees" when this is way over simplifying the problem and giving way too much credit to sites that operate this way.
      - permo-w 1y ago
        (in the UK) it really depends on your bank and even the type of card you use. the debit card chargebacks I did when I was with Natwest were always very simple. fill out a form, send it off, get a response by email. for the one CC chargeback I did I think it required a call and a lot more trouble. when I tried a (debit card) chargeback with a different bank, it was an incredible amount of trouble and then I think they rejected it anyway
    - the_other 1y ago
      How does that work when you’re deaf?
    - wing-_-nuts 1y ago
      >Number of people afraid to pickup the phone and talk to another human being Try to call comcast and actually speak to a customer service representative. Try it. I dare you. I bought a new modem last year and simply needed to provision it on the service. I got caught in bot limbo so long my only recourse was to scream 'cancel my account!' over and over until I actually got a human on the line. I'm sure that will be automated away at some point too.
- hangonhn 1y ago
  I honestly would use a card that promises me easier subscription cancellation. In fact, I sort of do already: I use Apple's in app payment system to handle as many subscriptions as possible because of how easy they make it to cancel. I know Apple increases the cost to the service provider and they in turn charge me more but the ease of cancellation is worth it to me. Now if a bank or card came along and provided the same (and maybe easy subscription management in general) they can have all my subscription revenue.
gsanderson 1y ago
Regulation? Unfortunately this administration is going in the opposite direction.
kgwxd 1y ago
They absolutely don't have the power to excuse debt. Just because a company can't charge your credit card, doesn't mean you don't still owe them money on paper.
- sillystu04 1y ago
  Visa/Mastercard can demand merchants meet certain standards of consumer care in order to participate in their networks. No consumer business can operate without access to those card networks.
  - arp242 1y ago
    I really don't want unelected corporations with no accountability to anything other than profit margins to be policing payments, subscriptions, business behaviour, or anything else. These companies provide an utility that is essential for participation in the economy. There needs to be some due process if you want to exclude people or corporations from that.
isleyaardvark 1y ago
The NYT itself uses the dark patterns for cancellation that would be forbidden by this rule.
- callc 1y ago
  They should be punished, the same as every other company that does this.
thomastjeffery 1y ago
They do have that power, and have abused it in the past. For example, refusing to do business with cannabis distributors or porn creators. If you take that past into account, and consider the fact that they aren't using that power the way you want, it becomes immediately clear that they never will.

drdec 1y ago

I, for one, do not want to encourage Visa/Mastercard to use their market position to enforce policies. What they have already done is damage enough.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago

Why? They get revenue from unwanted transactions too.

doctoboggan 1y ago
Those transactions might have a higher than normal chargeback rate which could motivate them to get rid of them. It could also be a perk of the card, they could provide a subscription cancellation portal on their website.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  That would definitely be a huge perk to me!
dspillett 1y ago
Chargebacks might upset that being a big benefit, and being the firm that takes a stance for customer care could be good advertising fodder. Though I don't see it working unless they both do it in step which minimises the useful effect of that against each other. It could still be a benefit vs other payment methods, what is PayPal's policy on such things?
- n_ary 1y ago
  Number of people afraid to pickup the phone and talk to another human being instead of letting few hundred in forgotten subscription is larger than I previously thought. By that sense, without any data, I suspect that chargeback amount is wayyyy smaller headache compared to txn fees from forgotten uncancelled subscriptions.
  - JohnMakin 1y ago
    It has nothing to do with fear. Have you ever tried to call in and cancel one of these services? If you're even able to find the right number to reach anyone, or after you've already waited an absurdly long time to do so, you'll be transferred around until you get frustrated and give up, or be subjected to extremely aggressive sales tactics trying to pressure you to stay on. I got to the point with one of those DNA sites where I had to ask about next steps for legal action to the representative before they'd even consider getting to the step where I could cancel my subscription - and even after that, still got charged and had to call again. It's maybe comforting to think "oh, people just don't want to call, they'd rather eat the fees" when this is way over simplifying the problem and giving way too much credit to sites that operate this way.
    - permo-w 1y ago
      (in the UK) it really depends on your bank and even the type of card you use. the debit card chargebacks I did when I was with Natwest were always very simple. fill out a form, send it off, get a response by email. for the one CC chargeback I did I think it required a call and a lot more trouble. when I tried a (debit card) chargeback with a different bank, it was an incredible amount of trouble and then I think they rejected it anyway
  - the_other 1y ago
    How does that work when you’re deaf?
  - wing-_-nuts 1y ago
    >Number of people afraid to pickup the phone and talk to another human being Try to call comcast and actually speak to a customer service representative. Try it. I dare you. I bought a new modem last year and simply needed to provision it on the service. I got caught in bot limbo so long my only recourse was to scream 'cancel my account!' over and over until I actually got a human on the line. I'm sure that will be automated away at some point too.
hangonhn 1y ago
I honestly would use a card that promises me easier subscription cancellation. In fact, I sort of do already: I use Apple's in app payment system to handle as many subscriptions as possible because of how easy they make it to cancel. I know Apple increases the cost to the service provider and they in turn charge me more but the ease of cancellation is worth it to me. Now if a bank or card came along and provided the same (and maybe easy subscription management in general) they can have all my subscription revenue.

gsanderson 1y ago

Regulation? Unfortunately this administration is going in the opposite direction.

kgwxd 1y ago

They absolutely don't have the power to excuse debt. Just because a company can't charge your credit card, doesn't mean you don't still owe them money on paper.

sillystu04 1y ago
Visa/Mastercard can demand merchants meet certain standards of consumer care in order to participate in their networks. No consumer business can operate without access to those card networks.
- arp242 1y ago
  I really don't want unelected corporations with no accountability to anything other than profit margins to be policing payments, subscriptions, business behaviour, or anything else. These companies provide an utility that is essential for participation in the economy. There needs to be some due process if you want to exclude people or corporations from that.

isleyaardvark 1y ago

The NYT itself uses the dark patterns for cancellation that would be forbidden by this rule.

callc 1y ago
They should be punished, the same as every other company that does this.

thomastjeffery 1y ago

They do have that power, and have abused it in the past. For example, refusing to do business with cannabis distributors or porn creators. If you take that past into account, and consider the fact that they aren't using that power the way you want, it becomes immediately clear that they never will.