4 ms·

I work in one of the big three - the culture here is more waterfall and less agile. They decided at some point ‘we don’t need to be experts in building systems,

I work in one of the big three - the culture here is more waterfall and less agile. They decided at some point ‘we don’t need to be experts in building systems, we should only be good at spec’cing them and putting them together’ This leads to a mindset of relying on suppliers for changing even one line of code and at their mercy. Talent leaves because they didn’t get to do any of the fun stuff. And you’re left with bunch of MBAs trying to wing it in what is available which is - no talent, bunch of admineers, and a long list of supplier bills. They go for cheapest component they can spec for a given feature cutting 4MB memory will save 5 cents per car, we sell half a million cars, that’s big savings! I can go on and on about this, but one of us even tried to be Tesla trying to build our own zonal architecture - and are currently struggling due to costs, tarrifs and turnover. Also you can’t overnight change this mindset - building vs assembling. But there has to be some way and I’m too about to walk out the door due to ~10yrs of frustrations.

andrewflnr 1y ago
> They decided at some point ‘we don’t need to be experts in building systems... So they've just chosen death. Fantastic, great to hear.
- pjc50 1y ago
  Well, yes. The legacy car companies are ossified. They want to keep churning out minute variations on the same cars, and regard software as a thin layer for the entertainment system. They don't want to adapt to EVs, which force a redesign of the car as a whole. They're going to get run over by Chinese companies unless they can beg for tariffs to prop up their un-innovation.
doodlebugging 1y ago
> They go for cheapest component they can spec for a given feature cutting 4MB memory will save 5 cents per car, we sell half a million cars, that’s big savings! I'm tired. Been out in the sun all day. Explain this to me please. When I do the math I get 500000 * $0.05 = $25000 That's a small drop in a large bucket of their gross income or net profits. EDIT: Harsh sun must've burned a few of my processors. I see now that this would only be one small change that saved an inconsequential amount of money. But each group is incentivized to produce minor changes like this that save small amounts and that those amounts do add to substantial savings and help complete the process of enshittification of the ownership and driving experience for those who choose to buy one of these vehicles.
- noisy_boy 1y ago
  That is one component in one model. Car makers have several models with maybe hundreds (or thousands?) of electrical components. Plus "cost-saving" has always been a surefire way of ensuring bonus.
- olyjohn 1y ago
  Yes but you make this small 5 cent change to 100 components and it adds up.
- tqi 1y ago
  Rinse and repeat across hundreds of components and your team "pays for itself" "We found $X cost savings" is the easiest path the promotion. It's measurable, cleanly attributable, and immediate, while the downsides are not. Maybe perform is bad bc they skimped on memory, or maybe it's because the software team sucks. Maybe it means future updates are hamstrung, but who cares the bonus checks cleared years ago. Besides, you probably got promoted to a bigger / better role by now, and who can remember who decided what when?
  - arkh 1y ago
    And with the help of software your get: this algorithm works well to recognize signs using 2 cameras. We can alter it a little to make it work with 1 camera (huge savings) and losing like 10% accuracy. With a cheaper camera we lose again some accuracy but even more savings. Now you get a shitty feature for savings while the people who implemented it can go cry in a corner thinking about their good version.
    - colejohnson66 1y ago
      "We asked one of the software guys if we 'could' use a single camera, and they said, 'uh... possibly?', so we pushed through!"
- smogcutter 1y ago
  It’s very obviously a rhetorical exaggeration.
whiteboardr 1y ago
Get out if you can! Spent 7 years at the three pointed star within design and UX - one day, when i’m over all i had to witness and experience i’ll write a book about the downfall of the german automotive industry. It’s all politics and due to constant battles and changing ownership throughout departments they won’t ever have a solid foundation. And i dare to assume that this goes for most of the automotive industry. It’s sad to see that a once driving force of innovation is stumbling over its own arrogance and ignorance. A major factor contributing to this are cost saving measures from the early 2000s where most of them stopped in-house research and development giving most of the work to contractors - a very expensive cost saving measure long term. We’re down to them using “technology” as a seasoning for consumption like a fancy restaurant - very little long term thinking.
- vachina 1y ago
  Yeah, and then those contractors (like Continental) has sub-contractors (like Akka) and they have sub-sub-contractors (some random Indian software company) working on the side mirror winding logic. In German cities with automotive industry, you’ll find thousands of these satellite companies.
  - rapsey 1y ago
    And in Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, Slovenia, etc.
- 0xFNaaNg 1y ago
  > downfall of the german automotive industry I hear that kind of statements all the time but if you take like real important car things germans are (still) pretty good: their cars handle really well, powertraian usually works perfectly smooth (or sporty), ergonomics is good to perfect, it will not rust for decades, list goes on ... The real things killing germans I think: cars are expensive and unreliable
  - mlrtime 1y ago
    Agreed, Germany still makes some of the best cars in the world. Who is making them better?
mihaaly 1y ago
Isn't the trouble that agile is not compatible with things that has to be thoroughly made, 'finalized before release', like in every mission critical production? Casuality and the dyamic free spirit primised has much much less space here. This is not sexy. This is important. Needs different mindsets than the software folks grew up along in the past decades. Yes! Yes! There are much much more sexy topics to focus on for an agile software maker, that yields better looking results seemingly instantly. Compared to the boring finalization and coordination - oh, you devil bastard, coordination - heavy activities. Don't take me seriously, speculating heavily.

andrewflnr 1y ago

> They decided at some point ‘we don’t need to be experts in building systems... So they've just chosen death. Fantastic, great to hear.

pjc50 1y ago
Well, yes. The legacy car companies are ossified. They want to keep churning out minute variations on the same cars, and regard software as a thin layer for the entertainment system. They don't want to adapt to EVs, which force a redesign of the car as a whole. They're going to get run over by Chinese companies unless they can beg for tariffs to prop up their un-innovation.

doodlebugging 1y ago

> They go for cheapest component they can spec for a given feature cutting 4MB memory will save 5 cents per car, we sell half a million cars, that’s big savings! I'm tired. Been out in the sun all day. Explain this to me please. When I do the math I get 500000 * $0.05 = $25000 That's a small drop in a large bucket of their gross income or net profits. EDIT: Harsh sun must've burned a few of my processors. I see now that this would only be one small change that saved an inconsequential amount of money. But each group is incentivized to produce minor changes like this that save small amounts and that those amounts do add to substantial savings and help complete the process of enshittification of the ownership and driving experience for those who choose to buy one of these vehicles.

noisy_boy 1y ago
That is one component in one model. Car makers have several models with maybe hundreds (or thousands?) of electrical components. Plus "cost-saving" has always been a surefire way of ensuring bonus.
olyjohn 1y ago
Yes but you make this small 5 cent change to 100 components and it adds up.
tqi 1y ago
Rinse and repeat across hundreds of components and your team "pays for itself" "We found $X cost savings" is the easiest path the promotion. It's measurable, cleanly attributable, and immediate, while the downsides are not. Maybe perform is bad bc they skimped on memory, or maybe it's because the software team sucks. Maybe it means future updates are hamstrung, but who cares the bonus checks cleared years ago. Besides, you probably got promoted to a bigger / better role by now, and who can remember who decided what when?
- arkh 1y ago
  And with the help of software your get: this algorithm works well to recognize signs using 2 cameras. We can alter it a little to make it work with 1 camera (huge savings) and losing like 10% accuracy. With a cheaper camera we lose again some accuracy but even more savings. Now you get a shitty feature for savings while the people who implemented it can go cry in a corner thinking about their good version.
  - colejohnson66 1y ago
    "We asked one of the software guys if we 'could' use a single camera, and they said, 'uh... possibly?', so we pushed through!"
smogcutter 1y ago
It’s very obviously a rhetorical exaggeration.

whiteboardr 1y ago

Get out if you can! Spent 7 years at the three pointed star within design and UX - one day, when i’m over all i had to witness and experience i’ll write a book about the downfall of the german automotive industry. It’s all politics and due to constant battles and changing ownership throughout departments they won’t ever have a solid foundation. And i dare to assume that this goes for most of the automotive industry. It’s sad to see that a once driving force of innovation is stumbling over its own arrogance and ignorance. A major factor contributing to this are cost saving measures from the early 2000s where most of them stopped in-house research and development giving most of the work to contractors - a very expensive cost saving measure long term. We’re down to them using “technology” as a seasoning for consumption like a fancy restaurant - very little long term thinking.

vachina 1y ago
Yeah, and then those contractors (like Continental) has sub-contractors (like Akka) and they have sub-sub-contractors (some random Indian software company) working on the side mirror winding logic. In German cities with automotive industry, you’ll find thousands of these satellite companies.
- rapsey 1y ago
  And in Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, Slovenia, etc.
0xFNaaNg 1y ago
> downfall of the german automotive industry I hear that kind of statements all the time but if you take like real important car things germans are (still) pretty good: their cars handle really well, powertraian usually works perfectly smooth (or sporty), ergonomics is good to perfect, it will not rust for decades, list goes on ... The real things killing germans I think: cars are expensive and unreliable
- mlrtime 1y ago
  Agreed, Germany still makes some of the best cars in the world. Who is making them better?

mihaaly 1y ago

Isn't the trouble that agile is not compatible with things that has to be thoroughly made, 'finalized before release', like in every mission critical production? Casuality and the dyamic free spirit primised has much much less space here. This is not sexy. This is important. Needs different mindsets than the software folks grew up along in the past decades. Yes! Yes! There are much much more sexy topics to focus on for an agile software maker, that yields better looking results seemingly instantly. Compared to the boring finalization and coordination - oh, you devil bastard, coordination - heavy activities. Don't take me seriously, speculating heavily.