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Go actually study what's going on in China, rather than eating up all the US propaganda. What they're doing in tech innovation is astonishing. And you can look

Go actually study what's going on in China, rather than eating up all the US propaganda. What they're doing in tech innovation is astonishing. And you can look at even just something like high speed rail, and its amazing. They're also connecting western Europe as well to the rail system. Look up Belt and Road initiative. They're also on the forefront in green/clean tech. And thorium reactors. Oh, and fusion. I'd say their 'try' is doing damned well. Its certainly blowing the USA out of the water. Well, unless you count number of homeless. We're beating them handedly there.

lukan 1y ago
Oh, you count china as socialism? I rather meant the more traditional approaches, like the one I was born into that fell apart. China as of now is rather state capitalism to me. And yes, they are quite effective in some areas. Totalitarism can be. Doesn't mean I would like to copy them.
- deleted 1y ago
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- aspenmayer 1y ago
  The Overton window dynamically shifts between “true socialism has never been tried” and “no true socialist,” but all growth or development in China must be attributed to China being sufficiently capitalist. Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along? Is socialism incompatible with capitalism or is it incompatible with democracy? Because if the successes of China can be attributed to capitalism while discounting socialism/communism, then why are we even talking about socialism in the first place, if it’s totalitarianism which is the problem? Somehow, if China stopped being totalitarian tomorrow, but remained socialist, whatever that might mean to you or look like, if they kept doing the same things in the market and in the party, the US would probably still treat China like we do Mexico now, and I doubt anything would change in how US treats China. Maybe I just lack faith in most folks in US. Since the “end” of the Cold War, there’s been a kind of search for economic, political, and cultural scapegoats. The potential end of demonizing China if it ever even happened for good cause would probably just cause transference of that moral outrage and social opprobrium to the next consent-decreed valid target for market-validated hate, which in this case would probably be Russia. The problem is that Russia doesn’t have much global economic impact on their own so US has to find a new big bad if China doesn’t fulfill that role anymore.
  - lukan 1y ago
    "Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along?" Well, it started of as authorian socialism and now is just authorian party state oligarchy with lots of red flags. And I have no connection to US demonisation policies (and this article was about a european country). My background is, that the alternative left in europe(where I socialiced) - rather traditionally does a glorification of China. So I am aware of all their glory. I just happen to value free thinking and free speech. And this is not possible there. And that is no propaganda, but official chinese policy. So I don't know about "true socialism" but I do know that all the marxists experiments ended up in authorian dictatorship, which is why I am more than sceptical to base new experiments on Marx again.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      In the 80s and 90s, Japan was the vaguely menacing economic bogeyman but that seems to have been in stark contrast to all I read about how Japan had almost no growth in GDP through those years due to inflation or something I have already forgotten. Which is why I don’t really look at what China or the US is doing as being surprising. China has been the bad guy since they were admitted to the WTO, if I had to put a date on it. I mean, the Vietnam War didn’t help much either, but that war was China’s Vietnam war also. But economically, China is still treated differently than any other country. Actions against China like tariffs seem like a massive hedge against inflation, but I don’t know if it will put meaningful pressure on their economy or ours, but we get the government we deserve. I’m not sure if they have a saying like that in China, but it would be interesting if they did. I think federalism in the US allows a kind of “freedom gradient” where the patchwork of overlapping legalities allows for uneven enforcement and a distribution of norms of business and in behavior. These gaps allow for growth and innovation but can lead to voter approved market failures in one jurisdiction that might as well be a world away from those who work in the state capitols or in D.C. I don’t know why socialism, Marxism, or whatever is blamed for dictators doing bad things for good/bad/no reason. I don’t blame democracy for the bad policies of its adherents either. Any system of government can produce bad results.

lukan 1y ago

Oh, you count china as socialism? I rather meant the more traditional approaches, like the one I was born into that fell apart. China as of now is rather state capitalism to me. And yes, they are quite effective in some areas. Totalitarism can be. Doesn't mean I would like to copy them.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
aspenmayer 1y ago
The Overton window dynamically shifts between “true socialism has never been tried” and “no true socialist,” but all growth or development in China must be attributed to China being sufficiently capitalist. Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along? Is socialism incompatible with capitalism or is it incompatible with democracy? Because if the successes of China can be attributed to capitalism while discounting socialism/communism, then why are we even talking about socialism in the first place, if it’s totalitarianism which is the problem? Somehow, if China stopped being totalitarian tomorrow, but remained socialist, whatever that might mean to you or look like, if they kept doing the same things in the market and in the party, the US would probably still treat China like we do Mexico now, and I doubt anything would change in how US treats China. Maybe I just lack faith in most folks in US. Since the “end” of the Cold War, there’s been a kind of search for economic, political, and cultural scapegoats. The potential end of demonizing China if it ever even happened for good cause would probably just cause transference of that moral outrage and social opprobrium to the next consent-decreed valid target for market-validated hate, which in this case would probably be Russia. The problem is that Russia doesn’t have much global economic impact on their own so US has to find a new big bad if China doesn’t fulfill that role anymore.
- lukan 1y ago
  "Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along?" Well, it started of as authorian socialism and now is just authorian party state oligarchy with lots of red flags. And I have no connection to US demonisation policies (and this article was about a european country). My background is, that the alternative left in europe(where I socialiced) - rather traditionally does a glorification of China. So I am aware of all their glory. I just happen to value free thinking and free speech. And this is not possible there. And that is no propaganda, but official chinese policy. So I don't know about "true socialism" but I do know that all the marxists experiments ended up in authorian dictatorship, which is why I am more than sceptical to base new experiments on Marx again.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    In the 80s and 90s, Japan was the vaguely menacing economic bogeyman but that seems to have been in stark contrast to all I read about how Japan had almost no growth in GDP through those years due to inflation or something I have already forgotten. Which is why I don’t really look at what China or the US is doing as being surprising. China has been the bad guy since they were admitted to the WTO, if I had to put a date on it. I mean, the Vietnam War didn’t help much either, but that war was China’s Vietnam war also. But economically, China is still treated differently than any other country. Actions against China like tariffs seem like a massive hedge against inflation, but I don’t know if it will put meaningful pressure on their economy or ours, but we get the government we deserve. I’m not sure if they have a saying like that in China, but it would be interesting if they did. I think federalism in the US allows a kind of “freedom gradient” where the patchwork of overlapping legalities allows for uneven enforcement and a distribution of norms of business and in behavior. These gaps allow for growth and innovation but can lead to voter approved market failures in one jurisdiction that might as well be a world away from those who work in the state capitols or in D.C. I don’t know why socialism, Marxism, or whatever is blamed for dictators doing bad things for good/bad/no reason. I don’t blame democracy for the bad policies of its adherents either. Any system of government can produce bad results.