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> answer seems to be yes regardless of where one sits on the political spectrum Yes, the ugly truth is that it’s hard to find people that have static or princi

> answer seems to be yes regardless of where one sits on the political spectrum Yes, the ugly truth is that it’s hard to find people that have static or principled values on anything, and most are kind of transparently looking for ways to force things on others. A place where you can see this very clearly is issues of bodily autonomy: one side of the political spectrum wants to force the other side to get vaccinated and the other side wants to force people into unwanted child birth. These are of course very different things, but both are ultimately coercive, so it’s not about the right to choose in either case. States autonomy vs federalism, bail outs, are similar. Almost no one has any real preference for it one way or the other on principle, it just depends on how they think they might be able to use it as a cudgel and how it will increase or diminish their own bottom line.

thrance 1y ago
Yet more bothsideism with a ridiculous comparison. Democrats never passed a law to force anyone to get vaccinated. If you want to die of fucking TB or polio, feel free to. But know you're a dickhead for acting as a vector of cured diseases, therefore endangering vulnerable people. One side and one side only rejects the mere idea of climate change, defunded FEMA, defunded NOAA, favors the oil and coal lobbies, etc. I could go on and on and on. I do not hold the Democrats in my heart, but these comparisons are beyond ridiculous. Finally, perhaps it's time for Americans to start reasoning in positive freedoms: maybe my freedom to not die of preventable diseases or to not live in a shitty overheating world surpasses yours to not get vaccinated or drive an oversized SUV to go to Walmart and back.
- richwater 1y ago
  > Democrats never passed a law to force anyone to get vaccinated This is revisionism at best, disinformation at worst. https://www.npr.org/2021/11/04/1048939858/osha-biden-vaccine-mandate-employers-100-workers https://www.npr.org/2021/11/04/1048939858/osha-biden-vaccine... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden_administration_COVID-19_action_plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden_administration_COVID-19_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_...
  - thrance 1y ago
    All your links point out the fact that workers could opt to wear a mask and get tested weekly instead of getting vaccinated. As for healthcare workers, they always had the option to quit their job if they refused to get vaccinated and preferred exposing patients to the disease, out of ideological fear of the vaccine. Maybe read what you link next time?
- photonthug 1y ago
  Woah there buddy, I'm personally a big fan of vaccines, I believe climate change is real, and we probably agree about more things than you expect. If you're interested, I'm also not talking about who passed what laws, I'm talking about average people, and what they say about what they want, and what they say their reasons are. If you don't see hypocrisy in that all the time, then either you're not talking to very many people, or you're so deeply into groupthink that you're just not capable of making any honest appraisal at this point. If you want to start calling a dislike of hypocrisy and a desire for more integrity in more people "bothsideism" and spewing all this vitriol then I guess you can do that, but I'm not sure it will have any positive effects.
  - thrance 1y ago
    My vitriol wasn't directed towards you, I just don't understand why you (as in, liberals) need to put "both sides" on equal footings every time you criticize the republicans. In our current landscape, the right (as in, "average people" on the right) is guilty of far more hypocrisy than the left, and that is an objective fact. Again, I don't hold the democrats in my hearts, but this kind of "enlightened centrism" is useless and in very poor taste in our current state of affairs. Also, please refrain from accusing anyone daring to express their opinions clearly that they are under the influence of "groupthink" or imply they are socially defective.
    - photonthug 1y ago
      Sorry but I reject being labeled as a liberal, I'm not interested in bothsideism or whataboutism, and I don't much like groups, teams, or cliques of any kind. I tend to hold everyone to same high standards of integrity because I just don't like lies, hypocrisy, hidden motives, self-interest masquerading as ethical behaviour, etc. I do have some advice though. If you want a stronger left, then you should probably stop using a label like "enlightened centrists", because this is just one of the ways that the left alienates their own allies for not being orthodox enough. Similar to what the right calls RINOs. It's not productive, it's immature playground politics, like when middle-schoolers get mad at their friends for not hating their enemies "enough" to be real friends. Instead of thrashing around trying to work out whether someone is on your "side".. maybe just listen to what they are saying and evaluate it on those terms
bdangubic 1y ago
one side of the political spectrum wants to force the other side to get vaccinated and the other side wants to force people into unwanted child birth. except of course you are talking about just one party here :)

thrance 1y ago

Yet more bothsideism with a ridiculous comparison. Democrats never passed a law to force anyone to get vaccinated. If you want to die of fucking TB or polio, feel free to. But know you're a dickhead for acting as a vector of cured diseases, therefore endangering vulnerable people. One side and one side only rejects the mere idea of climate change, defunded FEMA, defunded NOAA, favors the oil and coal lobbies, etc. I could go on and on and on. I do not hold the Democrats in my heart, but these comparisons are beyond ridiculous. Finally, perhaps it's time for Americans to start reasoning in positive freedoms: maybe my freedom to not die of preventable diseases or to not live in a shitty overheating world surpasses yours to not get vaccinated or drive an oversized SUV to go to Walmart and back.

richwater 1y ago
> Democrats never passed a law to force anyone to get vaccinated This is revisionism at best, disinformation at worst. https://www.npr.org/2021/11/04/1048939858/osha-biden-vaccine-mandate-employers-100-workers https://www.npr.org/2021/11/04/1048939858/osha-biden-vaccine... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden_administration_COVID-19_action_plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden_administration_COVID-19_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_...
- thrance 1y ago
  All your links point out the fact that workers could opt to wear a mask and get tested weekly instead of getting vaccinated. As for healthcare workers, they always had the option to quit their job if they refused to get vaccinated and preferred exposing patients to the disease, out of ideological fear of the vaccine. Maybe read what you link next time?
photonthug 1y ago
Woah there buddy, I'm personally a big fan of vaccines, I believe climate change is real, and we probably agree about more things than you expect. If you're interested, I'm also not talking about who passed what laws, I'm talking about average people, and what they say about what they want, and what they say their reasons are. If you don't see hypocrisy in that all the time, then either you're not talking to very many people, or you're so deeply into groupthink that you're just not capable of making any honest appraisal at this point. If you want to start calling a dislike of hypocrisy and a desire for more integrity in more people "bothsideism" and spewing all this vitriol then I guess you can do that, but I'm not sure it will have any positive effects.
- thrance 1y ago
  My vitriol wasn't directed towards you, I just don't understand why you (as in, liberals) need to put "both sides" on equal footings every time you criticize the republicans. In our current landscape, the right (as in, "average people" on the right) is guilty of far more hypocrisy than the left, and that is an objective fact. Again, I don't hold the democrats in my hearts, but this kind of "enlightened centrism" is useless and in very poor taste in our current state of affairs. Also, please refrain from accusing anyone daring to express their opinions clearly that they are under the influence of "groupthink" or imply they are socially defective.
  - photonthug 1y ago
    Sorry but I reject being labeled as a liberal, I'm not interested in bothsideism or whataboutism, and I don't much like groups, teams, or cliques of any kind. I tend to hold everyone to same high standards of integrity because I just don't like lies, hypocrisy, hidden motives, self-interest masquerading as ethical behaviour, etc. I do have some advice though. If you want a stronger left, then you should probably stop using a label like "enlightened centrists", because this is just one of the ways that the left alienates their own allies for not being orthodox enough. Similar to what the right calls RINOs. It's not productive, it's immature playground politics, like when middle-schoolers get mad at their friends for not hating their enemies "enough" to be real friends. Instead of thrashing around trying to work out whether someone is on your "side".. maybe just listen to what they are saying and evaluate it on those terms

bdangubic 1y ago

one side of the political spectrum wants to force the other side to get vaccinated and the other side wants to force people into unwanted child birth. except of course you are talking about just one party here :)