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I have heard complaints that the German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary. The result i

I have heard complaints that the German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary. The result is that upper class kids stay upper class, working class kids stay working class.

ghaff 1y ago
>German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary At some level I think that's true in a lot of places. I'm not sure, in the US, if you really know what kind of engineering (or whatever) you want to go into. High school pretty much didn't give you a good sense of that in a lot of cases. Perhaps, on this board, there is a disproportionate number of people who always knew they wanted to program. But sure wasn't the case for me growing up. And would probably have done something different than mechanical engineering but--whatever--didn't really matter.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  People have to choose a path at some point. We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. Many people I know changed paths mid-college career. Many also changed careers post college. The US is relatively forgiving in that regard (as are many countries). It’s the systems that shunt people into specific paths in high school that are challenging.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    I don't disagree. In the US, a least, there's a lot of capability to make changes over time. Obviously, the more specialized and longer the training, the harder/costlier it gets. But so many people I went to school with never really just went to work in a stereotypical job related to their major (including myself). Which is just fine.
  - toast0 1y ago
    > We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. I mean, we could. Maybe a mandatory year or two of service as seen in other countries, then let them work in low credential jobs for 5-10, and only then go back and seek further education. Could be interesting. It would interrupt progression on complex topics though, expect to have a lot of trouble getting back into Calculus. It would probably be really helpful for some people, especially those that end up dropping out of college after acruing several terms of debt. Otoh, delaying graduation for those who would have graduated 'on time' is probably a negative.
- nineplay 1y ago
  I think things have changed more recently, but when I was in college it was pretty easy to change from one STEM major to another. I didn't know I liked programing until my first Fortran class.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    I did a bit of BASIC in high school and took a FORTRAN course in college. Not much else with computers until later. In retrospect might have done EE or CS though CS was very mathematical and theoretical at the time. (No PCs.) I did sort of switch as I realized I didn't like college level organic chemistry so just switched to straight Mechanical Engineering from sort of a Biomech thing.
cheschire 1y ago
There’s ways to work your way up with dedication. Quite a lot of folks go for their abitur[0] and then on to university. Classism in Germany is perpetuated by cultural conservatism far more than whether you went to gymnasium or not. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur
alistairSH 1y ago
The “gifted” track in the US has the same effect. Get into the right track in mid-elementary school and you’re pretty well set from a college admissions perspective. In Fairfax, that’s a GT Center then Thomas Jefferson High, then your pick of top unis.
- nineplay 1y ago
  I largely agree but there is some egalitarianism with 'gifted' tracks in that they can exist poor areas. A friend of mine was the son of migrant workers who went to Stanford. He had the right combo of innate smarts, luck, caring teachers, and affirmative action policies which benefited dirt-poor minorities. There's still a lot that I would improve if I were dumb enough to become president. Free daycare, free preschool, free after school programs - I think it's the best thing we could do for income inequity but there's not enough people to champion it so it will never happen.
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    100% agree on government-funded preschool and after-school programs. And free lunches for all kids (not just those below some arbitrary line).
c7b 1y ago
> forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary That criticism might be directed at the separation at age 10, where some kids get to go to Gymnasium (basically, the highest level) and then there are several other (lesser?) school types. That's often criticized for the reasons you mentioned. Trade schools and dual education start around age 15 and they're generally considered a success story afaik.
- kortilla 1y ago
  15 is too young to make a lifelong career choice IMO.
  - bcrosby95 1y ago
    I didn't figure out what I wanted to do until I was in community college at 20 years old.
    - Tade0 1y ago
      I count myself extremely lucky that I had somewhat of an idea at 12. At 10 I was a child firmly separated from the adult world. That being said I think I can top that: When I was in 2nd grade or so my school announced that a "sport" class would be created - ostensibly to promote physical education and whatnot as there was a judo club associated with the institution. Net effect was that all the boys from broken, troubled homes would join and my class was left with half of its original count of boys. Girls had the same option on paper, but none joined. Sometimes I wonder whether it was good or bad that it happened. That is quite early to make such life-altering decisions, then again I wasn't in their position so perhaps to them it was beneficial. I really don't know.

ghaff 1y ago

>German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary At some level I think that's true in a lot of places. I'm not sure, in the US, if you really know what kind of engineering (or whatever) you want to go into. High school pretty much didn't give you a good sense of that in a lot of cases. Perhaps, on this board, there is a disproportionate number of people who always knew they wanted to program. But sure wasn't the case for me growing up. And would probably have done something different than mechanical engineering but--whatever--didn't really matter.

Aurornis 1y ago
People have to choose a path at some point. We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. Many people I know changed paths mid-college career. Many also changed careers post college. The US is relatively forgiving in that regard (as are many countries). It’s the systems that shunt people into specific paths in high school that are challenging.
- ghaff 1y ago
  I don't disagree. In the US, a least, there's a lot of capability to make changes over time. Obviously, the more specialized and longer the training, the harder/costlier it gets. But so many people I went to school with never really just went to work in a stereotypical job related to their major (including myself). Which is just fine.
- toast0 1y ago
  > We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. I mean, we could. Maybe a mandatory year or two of service as seen in other countries, then let them work in low credential jobs for 5-10, and only then go back and seek further education. Could be interesting. It would interrupt progression on complex topics though, expect to have a lot of trouble getting back into Calculus. It would probably be really helpful for some people, especially those that end up dropping out of college after acruing several terms of debt. Otoh, delaying graduation for those who would have graduated 'on time' is probably a negative.
nineplay 1y ago
I think things have changed more recently, but when I was in college it was pretty easy to change from one STEM major to another. I didn't know I liked programing until my first Fortran class.
- ghaff 1y ago
  I did a bit of BASIC in high school and took a FORTRAN course in college. Not much else with computers until later. In retrospect might have done EE or CS though CS was very mathematical and theoretical at the time. (No PCs.) I did sort of switch as I realized I didn't like college level organic chemistry so just switched to straight Mechanical Engineering from sort of a Biomech thing.

cheschire 1y ago

There’s ways to work your way up with dedication. Quite a lot of folks go for their abitur[0] and then on to university. Classism in Germany is perpetuated by cultural conservatism far more than whether you went to gymnasium or not. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur

alistairSH 1y ago

The “gifted” track in the US has the same effect. Get into the right track in mid-elementary school and you’re pretty well set from a college admissions perspective. In Fairfax, that’s a GT Center then Thomas Jefferson High, then your pick of top unis.

nineplay 1y ago
I largely agree but there is some egalitarianism with 'gifted' tracks in that they can exist poor areas. A friend of mine was the son of migrant workers who went to Stanford. He had the right combo of innate smarts, luck, caring teachers, and affirmative action policies which benefited dirt-poor minorities. There's still a lot that I would improve if I were dumb enough to become president. Free daycare, free preschool, free after school programs - I think it's the best thing we could do for income inequity but there's not enough people to champion it so it will never happen.
- alistairSH 1y ago
  100% agree on government-funded preschool and after-school programs. And free lunches for all kids (not just those below some arbitrary line).

c7b 1y ago

> forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary That criticism might be directed at the separation at age 10, where some kids get to go to Gymnasium (basically, the highest level) and then there are several other (lesser?) school types. That's often criticized for the reasons you mentioned. Trade schools and dual education start around age 15 and they're generally considered a success story afaik.

kortilla 1y ago
15 is too young to make a lifelong career choice IMO.
- bcrosby95 1y ago
  I didn't figure out what I wanted to do until I was in community college at 20 years old.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    I count myself extremely lucky that I had somewhat of an idea at 12. At 10 I was a child firmly separated from the adult world. That being said I think I can top that: When I was in 2nd grade or so my school announced that a "sport" class would be created - ostensibly to promote physical education and whatnot as there was a judo club associated with the institution. Net effect was that all the boys from broken, troubled homes would join and my class was left with half of its original count of boys. Girls had the same option on paper, but none joined. Sometimes I wonder whether it was good or bad that it happened. That is quite early to make such life-altering decisions, then again I wasn't in their position so perhaps to them it was beneficial. I really don't know.