5 ms·

I whole-heartedly believe in free markets, but at the same time, fuck everything about the circus clown show that is modern techno-capitalism.

treyd 1y ago
This is where incrementally making markets more and more "free" gets us.
mystraline 1y ago
Go hack and read Marx and Engels, and also study Ned Ludd and Luddism/luddites. There is NOTHING special about current technology in application of capitalism. Its always been exploitive, and grinds people into used and nearly dead objects. The answer isn't reforming capitalism, either. FDR tried, and we're back to the Black Friday set of events... But in this case, we're even worse off with alienation of basically every country as some sort of oneupmanship.
- lukan 1y ago
  So .. your answer is to try socialism again? Were there any major updates to the agenda, since it was tried the last time? If not, why expect a different outcome next time?
  - mystraline 1y ago
    Go actually study what's going on in China, rather than eating up all the US propaganda. What they're doing in tech innovation is astonishing. And you can look at even just something like high speed rail, and its amazing. They're also connecting western Europe as well to the rail system. Look up Belt and Road initiative. They're also on the forefront in green/clean tech. And thorium reactors. Oh, and fusion. I'd say their 'try' is doing damned well. Its certainly blowing the USA out of the water. Well, unless you count number of homeless. We're beating them handedly there.
    - lukan 1y ago
      Oh, you count china as socialism? I rather meant the more traditional approaches, like the one I was born into that fell apart. China as of now is rather state capitalism to me. And yes, they are quite effective in some areas. Totalitarism can be. Doesn't mean I would like to copy them.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - aspenmayer 1y ago
        The Overton window dynamically shifts between “true socialism has never been tried” and “no true socialist,” but all growth or development in China must be attributed to China being sufficiently capitalist. Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along? Is socialism incompatible with capitalism or is it incompatible with democracy? Because if the successes of China can be attributed to capitalism while discounting socialism/communism, then why are we even talking about socialism in the first place, if it’s totalitarianism which is the problem? Somehow, if China stopped being totalitarian tomorrow, but remained socialist, whatever that might mean to you or look like, if they kept doing the same things in the market and in the party, the US would probably still treat China like we do Mexico now, and I doubt anything would change in how US treats China. Maybe I just lack faith in most folks in US. Since the “end” of the Cold War, there’s been a kind of search for economic, political, and cultural scapegoats. The potential end of demonizing China if it ever even happened for good cause would probably just cause transference of that moral outrage and social opprobrium to the next consent-decreed valid target for market-validated hate, which in this case would probably be Russia. The problem is that Russia doesn’t have much global economic impact on their own so US has to find a new big bad if China doesn’t fulfill that role anymore.
        lukan 1y ago
        "Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along?" Well, it started of as authorian socialism and now is just authorian party state oligarchy with lots of red flags. And I have no connection to US demonisation policies (and this article was about a european country). My background is, that the alternative left in europe(where I socialiced) - rather traditionally does a glorification of China. So I am aware of all their glory. I just happen to value free thinking and free speech. And this is not possible there. And that is no propaganda, but official chinese policy. So I don't know about "true socialism" but I do know that all the marxists experiments ended up in authorian dictatorship, which is why I am more than sceptical to base new experiments on Marx again.
- aerhardt 1y ago
  I've read Marx and I'd rather commit seppuku than live in what he prescribes from his intellectual ivory tower. I can see why some smart people bought it for about a century, but by now there's too much empirical evidence that it leads to misery and disaster. Much rather deal with the cultural problem that is Klarna. Thanks for the suggestion, though!
fullshark 1y ago
Maybe you should reconsider where your heart lies, and ask if "free markets" that have worked so well for modern society have always been heavily regulated in order ensure they serve citizens beyond capital owners.
- ipaddr 1y ago
  In fairness we are regulated more heavy now then ever. The original free markets were more open and things became more regulated over time. Providing capital, creating jobs, providing products/services were what businesses provided for citizens.
okanat 1y ago
Our system isn't a free market. With 95 years of corporate copyright you'll have no free market. Neither with 20 years of patents. China probably has freer markets than West now, because since 1950s the West is constantly siding with mono/oligopolies that are against free market. The origins of capitalism is against free market. Neither Britain nor the Netherlands got their capitalism head-start because they let their companies to fairly fight. They created monopolies to terrorize, genocide, and impoverish people. Startup ecosystem is against free market. YC is against free market. They want the startups to grow at the cost of everything else and buy out all their competition. There is no fair competition nor free market there.

treyd 1y ago

This is where incrementally making markets more and more "free" gets us.

mystraline 1y ago

Go hack and read Marx and Engels, and also study Ned Ludd and Luddism/luddites. There is NOTHING special about current technology in application of capitalism. Its always been exploitive, and grinds people into used and nearly dead objects. The answer isn't reforming capitalism, either. FDR tried, and we're back to the Black Friday set of events... But in this case, we're even worse off with alienation of basically every country as some sort of oneupmanship.

lukan 1y ago
So .. your answer is to try socialism again? Were there any major updates to the agenda, since it was tried the last time? If not, why expect a different outcome next time?
- mystraline 1y ago
  Go actually study what's going on in China, rather than eating up all the US propaganda. What they're doing in tech innovation is astonishing. And you can look at even just something like high speed rail, and its amazing. They're also connecting western Europe as well to the rail system. Look up Belt and Road initiative. They're also on the forefront in green/clean tech. And thorium reactors. Oh, and fusion. I'd say their 'try' is doing damned well. Its certainly blowing the USA out of the water. Well, unless you count number of homeless. We're beating them handedly there.
  - lukan 1y ago
    Oh, you count china as socialism? I rather meant the more traditional approaches, like the one I was born into that fell apart. China as of now is rather state capitalism to me. And yes, they are quite effective in some areas. Totalitarism can be. Doesn't mean I would like to copy them.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      The Overton window dynamically shifts between “true socialism has never been tried” and “no true socialist,” but all growth or development in China must be attributed to China being sufficiently capitalist. Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along? Is socialism incompatible with capitalism or is it incompatible with democracy? Because if the successes of China can be attributed to capitalism while discounting socialism/communism, then why are we even talking about socialism in the first place, if it’s totalitarianism which is the problem? Somehow, if China stopped being totalitarian tomorrow, but remained socialist, whatever that might mean to you or look like, if they kept doing the same things in the market and in the party, the US would probably still treat China like we do Mexico now, and I doubt anything would change in how US treats China. Maybe I just lack faith in most folks in US. Since the “end” of the Cold War, there’s been a kind of search for economic, political, and cultural scapegoats. The potential end of demonizing China if it ever even happened for good cause would probably just cause transference of that moral outrage and social opprobrium to the next consent-decreed valid target for market-validated hate, which in this case would probably be Russia. The problem is that Russia doesn’t have much global economic impact on their own so US has to find a new big bad if China doesn’t fulfill that role anymore.
      - lukan 1y ago
        "Do you mean to say that China’s socialism is a mirage, a fig leaf for authoritarian state capitalism in a country that was once socialist, or do you mean that China was never even socialist to begin with, that it was just authoritarian all along?" Well, it started of as authorian socialism and now is just authorian party state oligarchy with lots of red flags. And I have no connection to US demonisation policies (and this article was about a european country). My background is, that the alternative left in europe(where I socialiced) - rather traditionally does a glorification of China. So I am aware of all their glory. I just happen to value free thinking and free speech. And this is not possible there. And that is no propaganda, but official chinese policy. So I don't know about "true socialism" but I do know that all the marxists experiments ended up in authorian dictatorship, which is why I am more than sceptical to base new experiments on Marx again.
aerhardt 1y ago
I've read Marx and I'd rather commit seppuku than live in what he prescribes from his intellectual ivory tower. I can see why some smart people bought it for about a century, but by now there's too much empirical evidence that it leads to misery and disaster. Much rather deal with the cultural problem that is Klarna. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

fullshark 1y ago

Maybe you should reconsider where your heart lies, and ask if "free markets" that have worked so well for modern society have always been heavily regulated in order ensure they serve citizens beyond capital owners.

ipaddr 1y ago
In fairness we are regulated more heavy now then ever. The original free markets were more open and things became more regulated over time. Providing capital, creating jobs, providing products/services were what businesses provided for citizens.

okanat 1y ago

Our system isn't a free market. With 95 years of corporate copyright you'll have no free market. Neither with 20 years of patents. China probably has freer markets than West now, because since 1950s the West is constantly siding with mono/oligopolies that are against free market. The origins of capitalism is against free market. Neither Britain nor the Netherlands got their capitalism head-start because they let their companies to fairly fight. They created monopolies to terrorize, genocide, and impoverish people. Startup ecosystem is against free market. YC is against free market. They want the startups to grow at the cost of everything else and buy out all their competition. There is no fair competition nor free market there.