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So I have serious thoughts about driving “software defined vehicles” in the future. I mean, and the article has confirmed this sufficiently, the core competence
by smartmic 1y ago
So I have serious thoughts about driving “software defined vehicles” in the future. I mean, and the article has confirmed this sufficiently, the core competence of the established car manufacturers is not software. I don't trust the newcomers like Tesla or the Chinese manufacturers for the time being. In my opinion, the same standards should apply to software in motor vehicles as in the aviation industry. And there can't be things like permanent internet connectivity, on-the-fly updates or anything else that is suitable for consumer entertainment devices. So I'm seriously considering whether my next car should be an “analog” one - but it's going to be difficult, a Lada [1] (not so exotic in Germany, where I live) is only available second-hand because of the Russia sanctions. I'm happy to accept alternative suggestions!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Niva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Niva
- tehjoker 1y agoAviation standards are the way they are because if you have an engine problem you can’t pull over to the side of the road. But yes, something approximating these for road conditions is a good idea imo. Part of me thinks the reason they are doing an integrated system is a combination of economics and convenience for 3 letter agencies to remotely assassinate ppl.
- smartmic 1y agoHaving an engine problem on a back road is one thing, having a software-system-integration-what-the-hell problem on a Autobahn at 180 km/h +/- is a different story. And yes, I do not want my family in the car at that moment.
- tehjoker 1y agoYea if it affects brakes, acceleration, or steering it's a huge huge problem.
- bornfreddy 1y agoOr even just AC (think visibility).
- WWLink 1y agoHaving an AC problem in death valley in the summer could be troublesome.
- rad_gruchalski 1y agoHey... I hear the crowd yelling "let's have a speed limit on the Autobahn, 100kph, see how we fix many problems at once" /s
- mihaaly 1y agoProjecting that "software had to be fully validated and finalized before the product entered production" was the stale old days and "make the car better over time" (i.e. out being driven) is the bright future by the automotive industry is far beyond worry. Basically sitting inside a Windows that can kill you. They all lost their minds putting stakes on software makers. I intentionally avoid the word engineering, engineering is far far away what is built up by the software making industry that is now tasked with being the babckbone of vechicles you put your and your family's life into. The cultures are incompatible. (disregard mission critical software, their engineers are not proud members of the 'do not finalize, fix it later' bunch, not at all, they are nowhere here)
- HPsquared 1y agoThere are safety standards for automobile software: ISO 26262. Software for steering or braking systems is of high quality. It's not the same team that does the infotainment.
- stahtops 1y agoHow do you square this with the article? It states that consumer reports, (a for profit company providing independent reviews, and not a regulatory body) said the Model 3 stopping distance was not good. Allegedly due to a “bad ABS calibration”. Tesla released an OTA SW update. Why wasn’t the bad calibration and degraded performance caught by regulators testing automobile safety standards? The article also posits that this ability to make OTA updates expands the (IMO very very bad) SWE perspective that “it’s OK to ship unfinished and buggy products” into safety critical systems.
- HappyJoy 1y agoConsumer reports is a non-profit last I checked
- HPsquared 1y agoAh interesting, I wonder if Tesla is an exception and if their systems do in fact follow ISO 26262. Standards are not necessarily legal requirements, and not necessarily checked by external people. It sounds like their ABS system wasn't designed as carefully as conventional systems if there was such poor braking performance. Reading around, it might have been related to the emergency brake assist functionality not being calibrated properly.
- AlotOfReading 1y agoThe role of US regulators in the automotive industry is pretty different from what you seem to be expecting. They see their main goal is to set minimum, testable benchmarks for safety and give manufacturers freedom to achieve that in any reasonably justifiable way. The consequence of this is that almost nothing is required beyond meeting FMVSS and passing the tests it prescribes. ABS stopping distance is one of those tests, but a quick glance at the CR tests doesn't look like an FMVSS failure. The stopping distance simply wasn't up to industry norms. Another consequence is that ISO-26262 and most other standards are completely, 100% norm-based in the US. They're used because the industry expects them, not because there's a legal requirement. You can deviate all you want and the only consequence is that regulators might take a closer look at your paperwork in the event of issues because they look unusual.
- turtlebro 1y agoJust buy a car from the people, who dedicate their career/lives to making cars and have done so for decades. You aren't smarter then them. Your "serious thoughts" and "opinion" about what standards should apply are not yours to worry about.
- Jtsummers 1y ago> Just buy a car from the people, who dedicate their career/lives to making cars and have done so for decades. You aren't smarter then them. Is this then logic that gets airlines to buy from The Boeing "Are door plugs supposed to stay in?" Company?
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- GenshoTikamura 1y agoThank you, I'm fed enough with living in the world governed by the people who dedicate their carrer/lives to make it a peaceful, prosperous and free place (as in freedom) and have done so for centuries
- stahtops 1y agoBMW i3 is great for city/town if you’re OK with electric. Not 4x4, but minimal “assist”, just traction control. Internet remote stuff is optional but nice. In the fully autonomous future the car I want to own and drive will still be my 6MT 911! :-) If I want to be driven, I’ll just book a waymo.
- ghaff 1y ago>If I want to be driven, I’ll just book a waymo. So move to one of the 2 or 3 cities in the US that have Waymo?
- stahtops 1y agoI think you missed the part about the fully autonomous future. We aren’t there yet.
- ghaff 1y agoAnd won't be for a very long time.
- dboreham 1y agoTo be fair: only small parts of those cities. E.g. no Waymo to LAX.
- jen20 1y agoNot to AUS or, as far as I’m aware, SFO. They also screwed the pooch in Austin by making Waymo available only through Uber, with no way to ensure you actually get a Waymo rather than a broken car driven by someone with a serious BO problem.
- andoando 1y agoBy aviation standards, wed be stuck with 1950s tech. Even for aviation, aviation standards hold saftey back
- pc86 1y agoYou seem to be confusing aviation standards with aviation regulation.
- decimalenough 1y agoThey're not separable. Who do you think is coming up with the standards?
- pc86 1y agoI think they can be separated though there's certainly overlap. But standards are going to be coming largely from pilots. Regulations are coming entirely from bureaucrats.
- serial_dev 1y agoI’m not sure I understand everything you said but I went with Dacia Duster, it’s the affordable brand, but I like that I can have a new car that has the controls and everything like a car from a decade ago… (lol) physical buttons, relatively good quality as they get to rely on Renault’s everything, I don’t need to go to settings to open the glove box, they don’t try to “out-innovate” everybody with ads, subscription heating, goofy scroll-knobs, or non rectangle screens. You can put CarPlay and Android Auto in it if you want. Also, you can just buy older cars, that works too. BTW, I thought about buying a Lada Niva, because I love the looks, but I heard it is not that reliable as you would assume, and they are pretty pricey for a car that is basically the same for forty years…
- greenavocado 1y agoA fender bender is lethal in a Lada
- FridayoLeary 1y agoThey also have a poor safety rating from NCAP (at least they did 2 years ago), because they don't fit their cares with electronic aids such as emergency automatic braking, which is just another reason to buy one.
- greenavocado 1y agoThe electronic safeties are negligible compared to the mechanical crushing on impact
- pc86 1y agoThe core competency of most software companies is not software, I'm not sure how GM thinks it can do anything halfway decent (it can't).
- mulmen 1y agoI visited Detroit last year and went to the GM headquarters. It’s open to the public with no appointment. You can wander around the Escherian maze with no guidance. A physical manifestation of every business decision GM has made in the last four decades.
- teekert 1y agoThat Niva is so nice! Just very very fuel inefficient, but man can it do off road in the hills of Albania. Take the one with the low gear and the diff-lock (and heated seats!). It's a joy to ride that thing (although not on the freeway). I also considered it, but even before sanctions is was very expensive due to taxes (here in western Europe). But it's so much fun.
- sweeter 1y agoI'd trust BYD more than Tesla but I don't want to have to trust anyone. I drove a 20 year old Honda still to this day, but literally every new car has software in it and it won't be an option in the future. It's just too profitable to gather the data that they generate. It's a privacy nightmare. I'm still appalled that Tesla got caught pulling footage of people having sex in their own vehicles, but the legal world has no intention of doing anything about it.
- throwaway29812 1y ago[dead]
- 71bw 1y ago> I'm still appalled that Tesla got caught pulling footage of people having sex in their own vehicles Anywhere I can read more about this? Sounds terrible.
- pnw 1y agoHow is Tesla, a 21 year old company that has shipped seven million cars across the world (including the worlds best selling car) a "newcomer"?
- FridayoLeary 1y agoThey only really became relevant ~ 10 years ago, I don't think they began selling lots of cars until ~2018 or later.
- Digit-Al 1y agoAlso, as many of the well known manufacturers have been going for 40 to 60 years, and some of them for over 100 years (Rolls Royce, Ford, Mercedes, etc...) then 25 years is a newcomer :-)
- mrheosuper 1y agoAviation standards allow boeing building their infamous 737-Max
- cosmicgadget 1y agoThat wasn't a malfunction but rather a flight control feature the pilots didn't know about. (Iirc)
- joha4270 1y agoThat's a very Boeing friendly way of putting it. As I understand it, yes the system worked as designed, but the design still managed to kill several hundred people. I'm not qualified to evaluate the design of the system itself. Was it inherently flawed or would everything have been fine if the optional backup sensor had been mandatory, making this another example of corporate greed causing tragedy? Either way, I don't think blaming the pilots is fair.
- cosmicgadget 1y agoMy recollection is it applied flight control input when the pilots did not expect it. The system was documented but not present on other 737 models. Definitely not trying to be Boeing friendly fwiw.
- joha4270 1y agoYeah, that matches my understanding. It was the > a flight control feature the pilots didn't know about phrasing that made me take issue. To me, it implies that if just the pilots had known about MCAS in detail, the crashes wouldn't have happened, implicitly placing the blame on them. While the reason for both the faulty system and the lack of knowledge can be attributed to Boeing trying to save money, which I think is a more fair target for blame.
- mrheosuper 1y agoa feature that is activated when SINGLE sensor goes haywire instead of two