4 ms·

hmm... the U.S. economy might stand to benefit from adapting a school system more akin to the German model? Specifically, offering a track similar to: https://

by lif 1y ago

hmm... the U.S. economy might stand to benefit from adapting a school system more akin to the German model? Specifically, offering a track similar to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_school

autobodie 1y ago
Doesn't matter because U.S. ruling class doesn't agree.
- tekla 1y ago
  There is literally nothing stopping you from going to trade school and skipping college. College is still a gate for higher paid trades because advanced manufacturing wants educated workers that can do math and/or programming g-code and/or know advanced metallurgy I know someone who went to welding school, and he was basically practice welding 40 hours a week after class because he was working on some very advanced welds that actually required some decent chunk of engineering knowledge
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    I mean, most trades do expect some sort of a college education now as well (minimum AA), and vocational programs are increasingly require attending a community college. Edit: can't reply below, but all of those vocations listed are offered at community colleges now and linked with an AS/AAS degree, as apprenticeships are often coordinated with CCs.
    - more_corn 1y ago
      Not plumbing, electrical, welding, construction, auto mechanic, hvac tech.
    - macintux 1y ago
      Just for future reference: when a comment thread is sufficiently nested the “reply” link is missing, but you can click/tap on the timestamp link. That’s a hardlink to the comment, whence you can reply.
alephnerd 1y ago
It's already been offered. The issue is automation remains cost effective because salaries remain relatively high. $24 an hour for a fabricator out of high school is easily 20-30% higher the salary for a similar role in Germany. US manufacturing remains competitive industries where a $20-40 an hour salary can be reasonably offered WITHOUT union guarantees. Otherwise the options were offshoring or automation. And for the kind of manufacturing roles that can afford to pay a relatively high salary, a college education is expected. Skilled Trades increasingly require a college education, because understanding classical mechanics with calculus, being able to script in domain-specific CAD tooling, or understanding how to synthesize a compound does require at least an AP level education.
nineplay 1y ago
I have heard complaints that the German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary. The result is that upper class kids stay upper class, working class kids stay working class.
- ghaff 1y ago
  >German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary At some level I think that's true in a lot of places. I'm not sure, in the US, if you really know what kind of engineering (or whatever) you want to go into. High school pretty much didn't give you a good sense of that in a lot of cases. Perhaps, on this board, there is a disproportionate number of people who always knew they wanted to program. But sure wasn't the case for me growing up. And would probably have done something different than mechanical engineering but--whatever--didn't really matter.
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    People have to choose a path at some point. We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. Many people I know changed paths mid-college career. Many also changed careers post college. The US is relatively forgiving in that regard (as are many countries). It’s the systems that shunt people into specific paths in high school that are challenging.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      I don't disagree. In the US, a least, there's a lot of capability to make changes over time. Obviously, the more specialized and longer the training, the harder/costlier it gets. But so many people I went to school with never really just went to work in a stereotypical job related to their major (including myself). Which is just fine.
    - toast0 1y ago
      > We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. I mean, we could. Maybe a mandatory year or two of service as seen in other countries, then let them work in low credential jobs for 5-10, and only then go back and seek further education. Could be interesting. It would interrupt progression on complex topics though, expect to have a lot of trouble getting back into Calculus. It would probably be really helpful for some people, especially those that end up dropping out of college after acruing several terms of debt. Otoh, delaying graduation for those who would have graduated 'on time' is probably a negative.

by lif 1y ago

autobodie 1y ago

Doesn't matter because U.S. ruling class doesn't agree.

tekla 1y ago
There is literally nothing stopping you from going to trade school and skipping college. College is still a gate for higher paid trades because advanced manufacturing wants educated workers that can do math and/or programming g-code and/or know advanced metallurgy I know someone who went to welding school, and he was basically practice welding 40 hours a week after class because he was working on some very advanced welds that actually required some decent chunk of engineering knowledge
- alephnerd 1y ago
  I mean, most trades do expect some sort of a college education now as well (minimum AA), and vocational programs are increasingly require attending a community college. Edit: can't reply below, but all of those vocations listed are offered at community colleges now and linked with an AS/AAS degree, as apprenticeships are often coordinated with CCs.
  - more_corn 1y ago
    Not plumbing, electrical, welding, construction, auto mechanic, hvac tech.
  - macintux 1y ago
    Just for future reference: when a comment thread is sufficiently nested the “reply” link is missing, but you can click/tap on the timestamp link. That’s a hardlink to the comment, whence you can reply.

alephnerd 1y ago

It's already been offered. The issue is automation remains cost effective because salaries remain relatively high. $24 an hour for a fabricator out of high school is easily 20-30% higher the salary for a similar role in Germany. US manufacturing remains competitive industries where a $20-40 an hour salary can be reasonably offered WITHOUT union guarantees. Otherwise the options were offshoring or automation. And for the kind of manufacturing roles that can afford to pay a relatively high salary, a college education is expected. Skilled Trades increasingly require a college education, because understanding classical mechanics with calculus, being able to script in domain-specific CAD tooling, or understanding how to synthesize a compound does require at least an AP level education.

nineplay 1y ago

I have heard complaints that the German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary. The result is that upper class kids stay upper class, working class kids stay working class.

ghaff 1y ago
>German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age then necessary At some level I think that's true in a lot of places. I'm not sure, in the US, if you really know what kind of engineering (or whatever) you want to go into. High school pretty much didn't give you a good sense of that in a lot of cases. Perhaps, on this board, there is a disproportionate number of people who always knew they wanted to program. But sure wasn't the case for me growing up. And would probably have done something different than mechanical engineering but--whatever--didn't really matter.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  People have to choose a path at some point. We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. Many people I know changed paths mid-college career. Many also changed careers post college. The US is relatively forgiving in that regard (as are many countries). It’s the systems that shunt people into specific paths in high school that are challenging.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    I don't disagree. In the US, a least, there's a lot of capability to make changes over time. Obviously, the more specialized and longer the training, the harder/costlier it gets. But so many people I went to school with never really just went to work in a stereotypical job related to their major (including myself). Which is just fine.
  - toast0 1y ago
    > We can’t delay education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to figure it out. I mean, we could. Maybe a mandatory year or two of service as seen in other countries, then let them work in low credential jobs for 5-10, and only then go back and seek further education. Could be interesting. It would interrupt progression on complex topics though, expect to have a lot of trouble getting back into Calculus. It would probably be really helpful for some people, especially those that end up dropping out of college after acruing several terms of debt. Otoh, delaying graduation for those who would have graduated 'on time' is probably a negative.