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There's also a bit of this that's culture war fodder. A lot of middle-class conservatives send their kids to colleges, their kids reject their parents' conserva

There's also a bit of this that's culture war fodder. A lot of middle-class conservatives send their kids to colleges, their kids reject their parents' conservatism, so the parents think the college has used some kind of magic liberalism ray[0] on their kids. The reality is, of course, that their kids weren't nearly as conservative as the parents thought. But that doesn't stop the salient myth of liberal indoctrination in colleges. Trade schools come into play mainly as a totem to hold up against liberal colleges. They are being played up as a sort of bastion of conservative thought, mainly because they don't have those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally tell people how to fight against the elites running the system. There's a kernel of truth in all of this, in that there's some trades that shouldn't have been left out of the STEM paths that colleges like to push as an obvious moneymaker. The culture war is ultimately one of mottes and baileys, where you take some truth and ride it as one's political hobby-horse. Hell, just to explain why this happens I've already had to do the same thing. [0] In the same way that some people think tech companies can "hack our dopamine loops" or whatever

techpineapple 1y ago
The thing that gets to me, and everyone is overly idealistic about a lot of things(learn to code!) but I really wish that that things were as simple as conservative culture warriors laid them out to be. It would be great if there was this “one neat trick!” To getting a 70k a year job right out of high school, optimized for people less academically inclined.
repeekad 1y ago
For what it’s worth, my intro to psychology gen ed professor told us to spell “humyn” with a y to “remove woman being dependent on man” and let us skip the final if we recorded ourselves protesting the controversial state house bill at the time. On net I agree with what you’re saying, but know that the culture war isn’t total bs one sided, and my unremarkable school had plenty of bad examples like this. Evergreen university in 2017 barring white people from attending class for a day was particularly embarrassing.
- whatshisface 1y ago
  If the indoctrination ray worked, you wouldn't be complaining about it. :-)
  - repeekad 1y ago
    Not complaining about it, just throwing some noise out there and I completely agree, being exposed to different viewpoints and learning to adjust your perspective is what makes well rounded humyns ;)
- kmeisthax 1y ago
  I went to Stony Brook, so my experience isn't comparable to yours, but I definitely did not encounter any professors doing shit like that[0]. And to be clear, there were a few politically-minded courses in our gen-ed requirements. We had a News Literacy course that was actually really good, that I wish I could force my Facebook-brained parents to sit through. If SBU had an indoctrination ray, they certainly had it on the wrong setting[1]. I'd already been firmly radicalized by Ron Paul revoLution warriors on Reddit into mainlining LvMI blog posts about Austrian economics and anarcho-capitalism by the end of my first year. It wasn't until I was leaving school when my political positions shifted away from that. [0] To be clear, SBU notoriously had a heterodox economics professor who was unabashedly a Marxist. I never met him, I only heard about the professor from one of the school newspapers. [1] Which, given everything else managed by the state of New York, would be totally on-brand for them.
- const_cast 1y ago
  For what it's worth, my one (1) class that had any kind of political spin was Engineering Ethics. In which I was told whistle blowing is bad and making weapons of war is super chill because they would've been made without you anyway.
  - repeekad 1y ago
    You likely went to a nice school, Trump supporters’ kids didn’t and my story is the kind of stuff they’re responding to, results may vary
lurk2 1y ago
> But that doesn't stop the salient myth of liberal indoctrination in colleges. It isn’t a myth. > mainly because they don't have those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally tell people how to fight against the elites running the system. There is value in a varied education, but a substantial number of Gen Ed requirements are used as a soap box by professors who would really rather be teaching something else. Social sciences and the arts tend to be the worst for it: Communications, English, Sociology, and Anthropology. Students want to get rid of these Gen Ed requirements primarily because the course content is treated as ancillary to Foucault, Adorno, and other dead-end thinkers. https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/2/homogenous_the_political_affiliations_of_elite_liberal_arts_college_faculty https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/2/homogenous_the_p...
fallingknife 1y ago
> those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally tell people how to fight against the elites running the system There is no group of people I have encountered in my life that I have as much contempt for as the professors and administrators at the $60K tuition (I went for free) private university that pretended like they were fighting against the elites that run the system when they are, if fact, those elites. The level of delusion in the non hard science parts of academia is absolutely mind blowing.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  You hold contempt for teachers, who will probably never make more than 250k a year at their career height, for railing against elites who make millions, or even billions? Most teachers are adjuncts anyway, and are not tenure-track, and are lucky to make over 80-100k in any market. And you hold this contempt because you believe that these teachers are actually elites in disguise trying to hoodwink our kids? Have you considered the possibility that you’re wrong about them being elites, or at least to what degree and in what context and sphere of influence? Who benefits from misdirecting legitimate ire away from wealthy elite society and toward middle class intellectual elite society?
  - fallingknife 1y ago
    Yeah, I make in that range and I'm disgusted by people at my income level who complain about money and are bitter and envious of people richer than them instead of enjoying their wealth. Really a waste of life. Got dealt a great hand and somehow find a way to ruin it.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      To say that the crux of their dissent is envy of their betters is an unfounded assertion. Most teachers I know are underpaid, and yet still argue more for $15 nationwide minimum wage than they do for pay raises for themselves. And many of those same teachers have to work those same minimum wage jobs when classes aren’t in session just to pay rent. I’m not sure who you’re arguing got such a great deal here, as I can definitely identify a few benefitting parties, but it isn’t the teachers, or the middle or lower class folks. Finger pointing won’t solve the problem, and individuals have unique circumstances and abilities to pay. I’m not sure if you have to work for a living that it is even reasonable to use the word “wealth” in the same way that those who make money from returns on capital use the word.
lr4444lr 1y ago
Professors self-stated political leanings, which have changed markedly over time, are important evidence here.
- techpineapple 1y ago
  I kind of wonder if the professors changed, or the politics changed around them. You can only have a Republican Party leader chasing after the “uneducated” for so long before the ideology starts to adapt.

techpineapple 1y ago

The thing that gets to me, and everyone is overly idealistic about a lot of things(learn to code!) but I really wish that that things were as simple as conservative culture warriors laid them out to be. It would be great if there was this “one neat trick!” To getting a 70k a year job right out of high school, optimized for people less academically inclined.

repeekad 1y ago

For what it’s worth, my intro to psychology gen ed professor told us to spell “humyn” with a y to “remove woman being dependent on man” and let us skip the final if we recorded ourselves protesting the controversial state house bill at the time. On net I agree with what you’re saying, but know that the culture war isn’t total bs one sided, and my unremarkable school had plenty of bad examples like this. Evergreen university in 2017 barring white people from attending class for a day was particularly embarrassing.

whatshisface 1y ago
If the indoctrination ray worked, you wouldn't be complaining about it. :-)
- repeekad 1y ago
  Not complaining about it, just throwing some noise out there and I completely agree, being exposed to different viewpoints and learning to adjust your perspective is what makes well rounded humyns ;)
kmeisthax 1y ago
I went to Stony Brook, so my experience isn't comparable to yours, but I definitely did not encounter any professors doing shit like that[0]. And to be clear, there were a few politically-minded courses in our gen-ed requirements. We had a News Literacy course that was actually really good, that I wish I could force my Facebook-brained parents to sit through. If SBU had an indoctrination ray, they certainly had it on the wrong setting[1]. I'd already been firmly radicalized by Ron Paul revoLution warriors on Reddit into mainlining LvMI blog posts about Austrian economics and anarcho-capitalism by the end of my first year. It wasn't until I was leaving school when my political positions shifted away from that. [0] To be clear, SBU notoriously had a heterodox economics professor who was unabashedly a Marxist. I never met him, I only heard about the professor from one of the school newspapers. [1] Which, given everything else managed by the state of New York, would be totally on-brand for them.
const_cast 1y ago
For what it's worth, my one (1) class that had any kind of political spin was Engineering Ethics. In which I was told whistle blowing is bad and making weapons of war is super chill because they would've been made without you anyway.
- repeekad 1y ago
  You likely went to a nice school, Trump supporters’ kids didn’t and my story is the kind of stuff they’re responding to, results may vary

lurk2 1y ago

> But that doesn't stop the salient myth of liberal indoctrination in colleges. It isn’t a myth. > mainly because they don't have those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally tell people how to fight against the elites running the system. There is value in a varied education, but a substantial number of Gen Ed requirements are used as a soap box by professors who would really rather be teaching something else. Social sciences and the arts tend to be the worst for it: Communications, English, Sociology, and Anthropology. Students want to get rid of these Gen Ed requirements primarily because the course content is treated as ancillary to Foucault, Adorno, and other dead-end thinkers. https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/2/homogenous_the_political_affiliations_of_elite_liberal_arts_college_faculty https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/2/homogenous_the_p...

fallingknife 1y ago

> those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally tell people how to fight against the elites running the system There is no group of people I have encountered in my life that I have as much contempt for as the professors and administrators at the $60K tuition (I went for free) private university that pretended like they were fighting against the elites that run the system when they are, if fact, those elites. The level of delusion in the non hard science parts of academia is absolutely mind blowing.

aspenmayer 1y ago
You hold contempt for teachers, who will probably never make more than 250k a year at their career height, for railing against elites who make millions, or even billions? Most teachers are adjuncts anyway, and are not tenure-track, and are lucky to make over 80-100k in any market. And you hold this contempt because you believe that these teachers are actually elites in disguise trying to hoodwink our kids? Have you considered the possibility that you’re wrong about them being elites, or at least to what degree and in what context and sphere of influence? Who benefits from misdirecting legitimate ire away from wealthy elite society and toward middle class intellectual elite society?
- fallingknife 1y ago
  Yeah, I make in that range and I'm disgusted by people at my income level who complain about money and are bitter and envious of people richer than them instead of enjoying their wealth. Really a waste of life. Got dealt a great hand and somehow find a way to ruin it.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    To say that the crux of their dissent is envy of their betters is an unfounded assertion. Most teachers I know are underpaid, and yet still argue more for $15 nationwide minimum wage than they do for pay raises for themselves. And many of those same teachers have to work those same minimum wage jobs when classes aren’t in session just to pay rent. I’m not sure who you’re arguing got such a great deal here, as I can definitely identify a few benefitting parties, but it isn’t the teachers, or the middle or lower class folks. Finger pointing won’t solve the problem, and individuals have unique circumstances and abilities to pay. I’m not sure if you have to work for a living that it is even reasonable to use the word “wealth” in the same way that those who make money from returns on capital use the word.

lr4444lr 1y ago

Professors self-stated political leanings, which have changed markedly over time, are important evidence here.

techpineapple 1y ago
I kind of wonder if the professors changed, or the politics changed around them. You can only have a Republican Party leader chasing after the “uneducated” for so long before the ideology starts to adapt.