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> One is that you probably have to be relatively smart to go into the trades I've got to wonder if a deeper dynamic is that you now have to be relatively "smar

> One is that you probably have to be relatively smart to go into the trades I've got to wonder if a deeper dynamic is that you now have to be relatively "smart" to go into the trades because perhaps the teaching/curricula is lacking, making it so that more base general intelligence / self starting on abstract concepts is required to actually learn in the first place. Trade classes should be an opportunity for people who missed the verbal-communication-of-abstract-topics meta-intelligence to develop their intelligence focused around a narrower topic that they taking a liking to. But if the teacher is really uninspired, and the curriculum shies away from actually creating larger cool things or playing with different techniques, (or becomes about following the manual for procedures for poorly-documented poorly-written throwaway proprietary software) I can see it coming off as yet another "when are we going to need this" high school class.

techpineapple 1y ago
I’ll bet it’s a scale issue though. Everyone knows a person (I’m one of them) who does bad in say math class but later gets a job with applied math, because doing math in a classroom is boring. But if you try to design a curriculum for say “math you need to be an electrician for people who failed math class”. You’re mostly going to get people who just don’t have the whatever they need to be good enough at math to be an electrician.
- mindslight 1y ago
  "math you need to be an electrician for people who failed math class" seems like a reaction from within the model of the prevailing philosophy - more abstraction-first book learning. Whereas addressing a different learning style would be more like: here are the physical skills you need to be an electrician, here are more classes working your way up to build larger and larger things, and oh by the way now that you've developed the skills of building things while taking direction from someone telling you how to build it, let's try to teach you how to figure out how to build it yourself. And I'm just wondering if the safety-and-HR-uber-alles dynamic has stamped out a lot a of that physical-skills-first in favor of like, dry lessons trying to tell people all about wiring before they actually get to play with wires. Thus making it so the same people who succeed here are the traditionally "smart" ones that can take abstract knowledge and store it for later, before having something tangible to apply it to. (electrician might not be the best example for this because the differences between good/unsafe/unpowered wiring are still pretty abstract, but hopefully you can see the point regardless)
SoftTalker 1y ago
To do well in the trades (i.e. doing something more than general laborer work) you need to be smart. You need to be able to program computer controlled mills and lathes, or troubleshoot computer-controlled electrical distribution systems, etc. Even to be a good mechanic, carpenter, ironworker, or plumber involves more and more technology and has always required good mathmatical and geometric ability. You also have to memorize all the detailed requirements of building code or other regulations at least as they apply to your trade. You can't advance very far if you're not reasonably smart.
yupitsme123 1y ago
From what I've seen the money in the trades is mostly from being the guy who gets the jobs and takes the money, not from being the guy actually doing the work.
- __turbobrew__ 1y ago
  Yes this is the way: you go into the trades, become a journeyman to learn the ropes, open your own shop, maybe eventually hire a few others, and then comfortably retire. All the people I know in trades who made good money went this way. There is a huge differential in trades between the cost of work being billed out and how much the worker is paid, and that surplus goes into the business owner's pocket. If you do good work as an independent you will always be busy.
- AngryData 1y ago
  This is it for I think the majority of trade jobs. A few trades in some positions make good money doing the actual trade, but for most of the industry you don't make great money until/unless you can move into a managerial roll where you are setting up jobs as the business owner or manager. And unfortunately a lot of people never get to that point because there aren't enough of those positions for everyone and a good chunk just get used up as meat for the grinder. Many trades are also huge boom/bust industries and the first guys to feel the bust are the guys doing the ground work.

techpineapple 1y ago

I’ll bet it’s a scale issue though. Everyone knows a person (I’m one of them) who does bad in say math class but later gets a job with applied math, because doing math in a classroom is boring. But if you try to design a curriculum for say “math you need to be an electrician for people who failed math class”. You’re mostly going to get people who just don’t have the whatever they need to be good enough at math to be an electrician.

mindslight 1y ago
"math you need to be an electrician for people who failed math class" seems like a reaction from within the model of the prevailing philosophy - more abstraction-first book learning. Whereas addressing a different learning style would be more like: here are the physical skills you need to be an electrician, here are more classes working your way up to build larger and larger things, and oh by the way now that you've developed the skills of building things while taking direction from someone telling you how to build it, let's try to teach you how to figure out how to build it yourself. And I'm just wondering if the safety-and-HR-uber-alles dynamic has stamped out a lot a of that physical-skills-first in favor of like, dry lessons trying to tell people all about wiring before they actually get to play with wires. Thus making it so the same people who succeed here are the traditionally "smart" ones that can take abstract knowledge and store it for later, before having something tangible to apply it to. (electrician might not be the best example for this because the differences between good/unsafe/unpowered wiring are still pretty abstract, but hopefully you can see the point regardless)

SoftTalker 1y ago

To do well in the trades (i.e. doing something more than general laborer work) you need to be smart. You need to be able to program computer controlled mills and lathes, or troubleshoot computer-controlled electrical distribution systems, etc. Even to be a good mechanic, carpenter, ironworker, or plumber involves more and more technology and has always required good mathmatical and geometric ability. You also have to memorize all the detailed requirements of building code or other regulations at least as they apply to your trade. You can't advance very far if you're not reasonably smart.

yupitsme123 1y ago

From what I've seen the money in the trades is mostly from being the guy who gets the jobs and takes the money, not from being the guy actually doing the work.

__turbobrew__ 1y ago
Yes this is the way: you go into the trades, become a journeyman to learn the ropes, open your own shop, maybe eventually hire a few others, and then comfortably retire. All the people I know in trades who made good money went this way. There is a huge differential in trades between the cost of work being billed out and how much the worker is paid, and that surplus goes into the business owner's pocket. If you do good work as an independent you will always be busy.
AngryData 1y ago
This is it for I think the majority of trade jobs. A few trades in some positions make good money doing the actual trade, but for most of the industry you don't make great money until/unless you can move into a managerial roll where you are setting up jobs as the business owner or manager. And unfortunately a lot of people never get to that point because there aren't enough of those positions for everyone and a good chunk just get used up as meat for the grinder. Many trades are also huge boom/bust industries and the first guys to feel the bust are the guys doing the ground work.