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> There’s a this idea that like a liberal focus on college has made the trades so unpopular no one is going into the trades The conservative / GOP tactics are

by mmooss 2y ago

> There’s a this idea that like a liberal focus on college has made the trades so unpopular no one is going into the trades The conservative / GOP tactics are usually the same, and everyone else has, at conservative urging, disarmed themselves - they've abandoned postmodern understanding of communication, which the conservatives strategically embrace: They reframe issues: College is reframed - it was that knowledge was power, the key to life, citzenship, work, and sharpening your mind, your critical thinking, with the best thinkers and ideas in history was the most powerful tool. Now college is reframed as a training in employment skills for corporations. Life was about dreams and opportunity, fulfilling your potential and your dreams; now it's about making enough to survive. They refame America: It was the land of opportunity, where by working hard anyone had the opportunity to accomplish anything, not a class-based oppressive system like Europe and elsewhere; now you stay in your socioeconomic lane, take any job you can get, and (again) survive - what does a poor kid need college for? How you frame issues can determine the outcome of the discussion. 'Should we murder unborn babies?', 'Should we let undocumented criminals into the country?' - obviously, the answer is in how the question is framed (and often the framing is much more subtle than these easy examples). That doesn't mean there aren't merits to both sides but framing is a way to prevent discussion of the merits. They also demonize: Everything must include a criticism of 'liberals'. Almost as a display of bona fides, you'll see that commentary must always include an attack on liberals, even if it's a critique of something the GOP/conservatives is doing. Similarly they blame 'liberals' for every problem, no matter how absurd. They blame liberals for immigration, health care, lack of green energy, etc. etc. If you read the transcripts of the leaked Signal chats, you'll see their agreed-upon talking points included, without discussion, 'blame Biden'. Biden isn't even in office and will never run again, but that's a must. And why wouldn't they do these things? They work and nobody puts up any resistance; nobody even tries to understand their tactics or why they work and dominate the public debate. The Democrats play helpless - not a winning strategy and IMHO the reason they lose; who votes for helpless? And many liberals now embrace victimhood -- helplessness + persecution = a lack of personal responsibility for anything -- another winning strategy.

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fallingknife 2y ago
Universities are the main gatekeepers of the class based oppressive system you complain about. The current bureaucratic governing structure of the US has been created by the liberals during the period from the New Deal through the early 90s when Democrats had almost unbroken control of congress. So, regardless of whether conservative complaints are valid, liberals are the correct people to complain about if you are unhappy with the current system because they are the ones who built it.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Employers, not universities. Employers were the ones who decided that most good jobs require a college degree. And then they sent administrators as their minions to take over the universities. Americans often call their universities colleges, which implies an organizational structure where the senior professionals doing the actual work are in charge. And that's how things used to work. But somehow that got turned around, with the administrators in charge and business interests treating universities as vocational schools. One way to look at this is through different motivations to studying: internal (you want to learn things), external (you want to be successful at whatever is being measured), and pragmatic (you want to pass the classes, get the degree, and move on). Universities prefer internally motivated students – those who study to learn rather than for jobs and career success. They can try to educate people with other motivations, but what those students want is inherently in conflict with what the professors want.
- mmooss 2y ago
  I think you are defining 'liberal' as 'whatever was favored in that time period' or the now popular 'not contemporary far right populists'. The White House, however, was controlled by Republicans, for example, from 1968-1992 with one four year break. > Universities are the main gatekeepers of the class based oppressive system you complain about. How so? Before Republicans cut funding, universities were widely available, especially public ones. Many like NYC's city colleges were free. Once you got a degree, you were in a different socioeconomic class, but degrees were available to those who could get them. The number of people with degrees grew considerably, including through programs like the GI Bill. That's substantial opportunity and class mobility. Now whether you get into college depends, most of all, on the class you're born into. US social mobility has dropped significantly.

by mmooss 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

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fallingknife 2y ago

Universities are the main gatekeepers of the class based oppressive system you complain about. The current bureaucratic governing structure of the US has been created by the liberals during the period from the New Deal through the early 90s when Democrats had almost unbroken control of congress. So, regardless of whether conservative complaints are valid, liberals are the correct people to complain about if you are unhappy with the current system because they are the ones who built it.

jltsiren 2y ago
Employers, not universities. Employers were the ones who decided that most good jobs require a college degree. And then they sent administrators as their minions to take over the universities. Americans often call their universities colleges, which implies an organizational structure where the senior professionals doing the actual work are in charge. And that's how things used to work. But somehow that got turned around, with the administrators in charge and business interests treating universities as vocational schools. One way to look at this is through different motivations to studying: internal (you want to learn things), external (you want to be successful at whatever is being measured), and pragmatic (you want to pass the classes, get the degree, and move on). Universities prefer internally motivated students – those who study to learn rather than for jobs and career success. They can try to educate people with other motivations, but what those students want is inherently in conflict with what the professors want.
mmooss 2y ago
I think you are defining 'liberal' as 'whatever was favored in that time period' or the now popular 'not contemporary far right populists'. The White House, however, was controlled by Republicans, for example, from 1968-1992 with one four year break. > Universities are the main gatekeepers of the class based oppressive system you complain about. How so? Before Republicans cut funding, universities were widely available, especially public ones. Many like NYC's city colleges were free. Once you got a degree, you were in a different socioeconomic class, but degrees were available to those who could get them. The number of people with degrees grew considerably, including through programs like the GI Bill. That's substantial opportunity and class mobility. Now whether you get into college depends, most of all, on the class you're born into. US social mobility has dropped significantly.