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It is at best reading a humanistic call, no spiritual content at all. I wonder how the reference to Nature works as an argument for the law of the strongest ess

by cgio 1y ago

It is at best reading a humanistic call, no spiritual content at all. I wonder how the reference to Nature works as an argument for the law of the strongest essentially but not e.g. for homosexuality. Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? These are the things that would give depth to a position. I am as reductionist as he himself when he argues with the straw man of “socialists are coming to take your houses”. We all see in the Western world who came for our houses after all. I would dedicate more time to a position that is substantial even if not agreeable. Full disclosure, I am a believer, one though who has also seen socialist economic structures applied in practice in monasteries. This is not a spiritual position I am reading, it is a second class political manifesto with Latin dressage for impressionability.

kulahan 1y ago
> Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? This is an extremely common theme across the Catholic Church, though?? It’s one of the primary reasons the church is against Socialism - it reduces people to their economic status and strips them of their inherent human dignity through that process. Agree with it or not, it’s absolutely ignorant to imply the Church doesn’t apply its moral teachings to economic scenarios.
- cgio 1y ago
  This is because dignity is somehow naturally aligned with property, indirectly power? I give an example where it does apply moral teachings to economic scenarios myself, e.g. monastic life. If you mean that the natural property argument is to be considered a moral teaching then I don’t see how morals and not mere power dynamics are required for this model. Can you give an example so that I can assess if my implied ignorance refers to other scenarios? I would argue that any economic system concerns itself with human as an economic agent, capitalism and socialism alike. Is church against capitalism too? If yes, that’s not what this circular reads like.
  - arrosenberg 1y ago
    It’s because the Church itself has trillions of dollars in property that it has no interest in being forcefully divested from.
    - kulahan 1y ago
      Do you have any source whatsoever that shows the church is not a collection of disparate bank accounts and, in fact, has “””trillions of dollars”””?
      - defrost 1y ago
        The claim was that the Church holds much property of value, which is true although what price do you put on the Vatican? Catholic Chuch property holdings in Australia come to approx $30 billion (AU) and includes many rentals. Globally there are at least 5,000 properties recently listed in a partial Administration of the Patrimony of the Holy See report on real estate holdings (see Reuters and other outlets for that report). "Trillions" in the GP comment is hypothetical value .. again, how can the many cathedrals be realistically valued .. they are more or less 'priceless' artifacts of cultural heritage .. although the fire at Notre Dame certainly gave us a ballpark on how much rennovations can cost and what will be put up in donations towards that work.
        kulahan 1y ago
        You’re absolutely right that I misread his comment, thanks Still, my larger point is that while they all follow the pope, they also are all individual groups with their own finances, problems, and goals. The idea that the pope might sell one church to support another, for instance, is not how it could work in reality.
        defrost 1y ago
        How it has worked, until recently at least, is opaquely with little real oversight into various national chapters or into the more octopus like tendrils of the central body. It's been only a decade since any real effort has been applied to financial transperancy in the Catholic Church affairs: Financial reform shows crafty political side of pope (2014) - https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/02/25/financial-reform-shows-crafty-political-side-pope/PeipxfhuftqKNvUIGO7mKK/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/02/25/financial-... Whatever that was or may still be under a new Pope was likely disrupted by the court room adventures of Cardinal George Pell. > The idea that the pope might sell one church to support another My read, admittedly a skim some years back, of Catholic Church real estate reports is that church property ownerships are a small part of a larger, much larger, real estate portfolio that includes mueseums, schools, apratment complexes, large historic multi-million dollar houses with spectacular views in Sydney, commercial office complexes for rent, etc.

by cgio 1y ago

kulahan 1y ago

> Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? This is an extremely common theme across the Catholic Church, though?? It’s one of the primary reasons the church is against Socialism - it reduces people to their economic status and strips them of their inherent human dignity through that process. Agree with it or not, it’s absolutely ignorant to imply the Church doesn’t apply its moral teachings to economic scenarios.

cgio 1y ago
This is because dignity is somehow naturally aligned with property, indirectly power? I give an example where it does apply moral teachings to economic scenarios myself, e.g. monastic life. If you mean that the natural property argument is to be considered a moral teaching then I don’t see how morals and not mere power dynamics are required for this model. Can you give an example so that I can assess if my implied ignorance refers to other scenarios? I would argue that any economic system concerns itself with human as an economic agent, capitalism and socialism alike. Is church against capitalism too? If yes, that’s not what this circular reads like.
- arrosenberg 1y ago
  It’s because the Church itself has trillions of dollars in property that it has no interest in being forcefully divested from.
  - kulahan 1y ago
    Do you have any source whatsoever that shows the church is not a collection of disparate bank accounts and, in fact, has “””trillions of dollars”””?
    - defrost 1y ago
      The claim was that the Church holds much property of value, which is true although what price do you put on the Vatican? Catholic Chuch property holdings in Australia come to approx $30 billion (AU) and includes many rentals. Globally there are at least 5,000 properties recently listed in a partial Administration of the Patrimony of the Holy See report on real estate holdings (see Reuters and other outlets for that report). "Trillions" in the GP comment is hypothetical value .. again, how can the many cathedrals be realistically valued .. they are more or less 'priceless' artifacts of cultural heritage .. although the fire at Notre Dame certainly gave us a ballpark on how much rennovations can cost and what will be put up in donations towards that work.
      - kulahan 1y ago
        You’re absolutely right that I misread his comment, thanks Still, my larger point is that while they all follow the pope, they also are all individual groups with their own finances, problems, and goals. The idea that the pope might sell one church to support another, for instance, is not how it could work in reality.
        defrost 1y ago
        How it has worked, until recently at least, is opaquely with little real oversight into various national chapters or into the more octopus like tendrils of the central body. It's been only a decade since any real effort has been applied to financial transperancy in the Catholic Church affairs: Financial reform shows crafty political side of pope (2014) - https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/02/25/financial-reform-shows-crafty-political-side-pope/PeipxfhuftqKNvUIGO7mKK/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2014/02/25/financial-... Whatever that was or may still be under a new Pope was likely disrupted by the court room adventures of Cardinal George Pell. > The idea that the pope might sell one church to support another My read, admittedly a skim some years back, of Catholic Church real estate reports is that church property ownerships are a small part of a larger, much larger, real estate portfolio that includes mueseums, schools, apratment complexes, large historic multi-million dollar houses with spectacular views in Sydney, commercial office complexes for rent, etc.