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> The solution proposed is let the rich get richer, let’s just ask them to be fair... This is not accurate. Leo XIII explicitly calls for state action to prot

> The solution proposed is let the rich get richer, let’s just ask them to be fair... This is not accurate. Leo XIII explicitly calls for state action to protect the rights and interests of the working man. Leo says that the public authority—i.e. the state—has a duty to "prevent [the violation of rights] and to punish injury" (Rerum novarum 37). He proceeds to make note that the poor—unlike the rich, who have means of shielding themselves due to their wealth—depend upon the state to a higher degree and therefore should be "specially cared for and protected by the government". Furthermore, Leo states that the working man has, "has interests in which he should be protected by the State," namely their spiritual and physical well-being (Rerum novarum 40). In the following sections he argues for restrictions to be put in place to ensure that workers have appropriate time for rest in accordance with their work. Suffice it to say, Pope Leo XIII absolutely does not envision a world where the wealthy are merely "just ask" for fairness. He certainly places limitations on proper government action in his refutation of socialism, but it is completely wrong to portray this as a rejection of state protection of workers in its entirety (this becomes much more obvious when reading his work in line with prior teachings pertaining to state action). Having re-read Rerum Novarum within the last week, what you are saying is reductive to the point of not accurately portraying the contents of the encyclical. I would encourage you and others to (re)read the encyclical with an eye towards getting a more full and accurate understanding.

cgio 1y ago
It is at best reading a humanistic call, no spiritual content at all. I wonder how the reference to Nature works as an argument for the law of the strongest essentially but not e.g. for homosexuality. Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? These are the things that would give depth to a position. I am as reductionist as he himself when he argues with the straw man of “socialists are coming to take your houses”. We all see in the Western world who came for our houses after all. I would dedicate more time to a position that is substantial even if not agreeable. Full disclosure, I am a believer, one though who has also seen socialist economic structures applied in practice in monasteries. This is not a spiritual position I am reading, it is a second class political manifesto with Latin dressage for impressionability.
- kulahan 1y ago
  > Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? This is an extremely common theme across the Catholic Church, though?? It’s one of the primary reasons the church is against Socialism - it reduces people to their economic status and strips them of their inherent human dignity through that process. Agree with it or not, it’s absolutely ignorant to imply the Church doesn’t apply its moral teachings to economic scenarios.
  - cgio 1y ago
    This is because dignity is somehow naturally aligned with property, indirectly power? I give an example where it does apply moral teachings to economic scenarios myself, e.g. monastic life. If you mean that the natural property argument is to be considered a moral teaching then I don’t see how morals and not mere power dynamics are required for this model. Can you give an example so that I can assess if my implied ignorance refers to other scenarios? I would argue that any economic system concerns itself with human as an economic agent, capitalism and socialism alike. Is church against capitalism too? If yes, that’s not what this circular reads like.
    - arrosenberg 1y ago
      It’s because the Church itself has trillions of dollars in property that it has no interest in being forcefully divested from.
      - kulahan 1y ago
        Do you have any source whatsoever that shows the church is not a collection of disparate bank accounts and, in fact, has “””trillions of dollars”””?
        defrost 1y ago
        The claim was that the Church holds much property of value, which is true although what price do you put on the Vatican? Catholic Chuch property holdings in Australia come to approx $30 billion (AU) and includes many rentals. Globally there are at least 5,000 properties recently listed in a partial Administration of the Patrimony of the Holy See report on real estate holdings (see Reuters and other outlets for that report). "Trillions" in the GP comment is hypothetical value .. again, how can the many cathedrals be realistically valued .. they are more or less 'priceless' artifacts of cultural heritage .. although the fire at Notre Dame certainly gave us a ballpark on how much rennovations can cost and what will be put up in donations towards that work.
deleted 1y ago
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cgio 1y ago

It is at best reading a humanistic call, no spiritual content at all. I wonder how the reference to Nature works as an argument for the law of the strongest essentially but not e.g. for homosexuality. Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? These are the things that would give depth to a position. I am as reductionist as he himself when he argues with the straw man of “socialists are coming to take your houses”. We all see in the Western world who came for our houses after all. I would dedicate more time to a position that is substantial even if not agreeable. Full disclosure, I am a believer, one though who has also seen socialist economic structures applied in practice in monasteries. This is not a spiritual position I am reading, it is a second class political manifesto with Latin dressage for impressionability.

kulahan 1y ago
> Why is the argument that we have to be better than our nature not applicable in the context of economics? This is an extremely common theme across the Catholic Church, though?? It’s one of the primary reasons the church is against Socialism - it reduces people to their economic status and strips them of their inherent human dignity through that process. Agree with it or not, it’s absolutely ignorant to imply the Church doesn’t apply its moral teachings to economic scenarios.
- cgio 1y ago
  This is because dignity is somehow naturally aligned with property, indirectly power? I give an example where it does apply moral teachings to economic scenarios myself, e.g. monastic life. If you mean that the natural property argument is to be considered a moral teaching then I don’t see how morals and not mere power dynamics are required for this model. Can you give an example so that I can assess if my implied ignorance refers to other scenarios? I would argue that any economic system concerns itself with human as an economic agent, capitalism and socialism alike. Is church against capitalism too? If yes, that’s not what this circular reads like.
  - arrosenberg 1y ago
    It’s because the Church itself has trillions of dollars in property that it has no interest in being forcefully divested from.
    - kulahan 1y ago
      Do you have any source whatsoever that shows the church is not a collection of disparate bank accounts and, in fact, has “””trillions of dollars”””?
      - defrost 1y ago
        The claim was that the Church holds much property of value, which is true although what price do you put on the Vatican? Catholic Chuch property holdings in Australia come to approx $30 billion (AU) and includes many rentals. Globally there are at least 5,000 properties recently listed in a partial Administration of the Patrimony of the Holy See report on real estate holdings (see Reuters and other outlets for that report). "Trillions" in the GP comment is hypothetical value .. again, how can the many cathedrals be realistically valued .. they are more or less 'priceless' artifacts of cultural heritage .. although the fire at Notre Dame certainly gave us a ballpark on how much rennovations can cost and what will be put up in donations towards that work.

deleted 1y ago

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