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what Clojure did for Lisp Hickey’s goal was improving JVM programming ergonomics. It was not changing Common Lisp (or Scheme). Sure, Clojure exposed some prog

what Clojure did for Lisp Hickey’s goal was improving JVM programming ergonomics. It was not changing Common Lisp (or Scheme). Sure, Clojure exposed some programmers to lisp, but lisp shops didn’t convert to Clojure. JVM shops did adopt it in part because Clojure “is just a Java library.”

tyre 1y ago
Yep. The parallel here would be taking logic programming and opening it to new users. Prolog or systems like CLIPS are super powerful and map to common problems better than other tools, but are Scary and Niche and Unknown.
pjmlp 1y ago
Which is why the Clojure community is the coolest from guest languages on the JVM, as they embrace the platform, instead of dissing the platform like the other one used to bootstrap a mobile SDK ecosystem.
- zbentley 1y ago
  Not entirely wrong, but … only one of Clojure and Kotlin is close enough to Java that it’s inspiring meaningful improvements in the upstream ecosystem. If the “dissing” hypothesis were true I’d expect Clojure to be the one influencing the most change, but it’s not.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Oh boy are they so true, one of the reasons I don't care about the Kotlin Virtual Machine any longer. So full of themselves on how much better they are than Java.
- yawaramin 1y ago
  Imho, Scala is the coolest of the JVM guest languages :-)
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    The language yes, the way the community embraces the platform and ecosystem that makes their existence possible in first place, not as much.
    - yawaramin 1y ago
      What do you consider as 'embracing the platform and the ecosystem'? As far as I'm aware Scala is fully interoperable with anything on the JVM.
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        Community, I wasn't talking about the language itself. It puts me off having a programming language that depends on the Java the Virtual Machine, Java the programming language, Java the ecosystem, so that their language could exist in first place, and then talk down on it. Still waiting on Scala Native or Kotlin Native to take over JVM and the standard library. Clojure community isn't like that, while they try to stay on Lisp like land, they embrace the ecosystem (JVM and JS), without putting it down at every opportunity.
        yawaramin 1y ago
        How can Scala 'talk down' the platform it exists on? This doesn't even make sense. You know the creator of Scala made deep contributions (generics) to the JVM, right? Scala's sbt is used by many Java projects as a build system. Its Play Framework and Akka actor system are super popular in Java too because they provide idiomatic Java APIs. Projects like Spark keep JVM relevant for Big Data. SoftwareMill's Ox project builds directly on top of JVM virtual threads and structured concurrency. I haven't even heard of any equivalent Clojure project. You have it exactly backwards, I'm afraid.
        pjmlp 1y ago
        The community, do I have to letter spell you, why do you keep talking about Scala the language, Scala projects? Why do I care what is written in Scala, how well it interoperates with the JVM, or whatever Scala projects are successful, when I am talking about how human beings talk down about another piece technology, its limitations and warts, how it prevents the language greatness, that by accident happens to be the underlying infrastructure of their beloved language? Do you rather have links to discussions on Reddit, Twitter discussions and what not? I never said anything about the creator specifically.

tyre 1y ago

Yep. The parallel here would be taking logic programming and opening it to new users. Prolog or systems like CLIPS are super powerful and map to common problems better than other tools, but are Scary and Niche and Unknown.

pjmlp 1y ago

Which is why the Clojure community is the coolest from guest languages on the JVM, as they embrace the platform, instead of dissing the platform like the other one used to bootstrap a mobile SDK ecosystem.

zbentley 1y ago
Not entirely wrong, but … only one of Clojure and Kotlin is close enough to Java that it’s inspiring meaningful improvements in the upstream ecosystem. If the “dissing” hypothesis were true I’d expect Clojure to be the one influencing the most change, but it’s not.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Oh boy are they so true, one of the reasons I don't care about the Kotlin Virtual Machine any longer. So full of themselves on how much better they are than Java.
yawaramin 1y ago
Imho, Scala is the coolest of the JVM guest languages :-)
- pjmlp 1y ago
  The language yes, the way the community embraces the platform and ecosystem that makes their existence possible in first place, not as much.
  - yawaramin 1y ago
    What do you consider as 'embracing the platform and the ecosystem'? As far as I'm aware Scala is fully interoperable with anything on the JVM.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Community, I wasn't talking about the language itself. It puts me off having a programming language that depends on the Java the Virtual Machine, Java the programming language, Java the ecosystem, so that their language could exist in first place, and then talk down on it. Still waiting on Scala Native or Kotlin Native to take over JVM and the standard library. Clojure community isn't like that, while they try to stay on Lisp like land, they embrace the ecosystem (JVM and JS), without putting it down at every opportunity.
      - yawaramin 1y ago
        How can Scala 'talk down' the platform it exists on? This doesn't even make sense. You know the creator of Scala made deep contributions (generics) to the JVM, right? Scala's sbt is used by many Java projects as a build system. Its Play Framework and Akka actor system are super popular in Java too because they provide idiomatic Java APIs. Projects like Spark keep JVM relevant for Big Data. SoftwareMill's Ox project builds directly on top of JVM virtual threads and structured concurrency. I haven't even heard of any equivalent Clojure project. You have it exactly backwards, I'm afraid.
        pjmlp 1y ago
        The community, do I have to letter spell you, why do you keep talking about Scala the language, Scala projects? Why do I care what is written in Scala, how well it interoperates with the JVM, or whatever Scala projects are successful, when I am talking about how human beings talk down about another piece technology, its limitations and warts, how it prevents the language greatness, that by accident happens to be the underlying infrastructure of their beloved language? Do you rather have links to discussions on Reddit, Twitter discussions and what not? I never said anything about the creator specifically.