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Please see the link. Especially this section https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness Nicotine by itself is at most v

by eru 2y ago

Please see the link. Especially this section https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness Nicotine by itself is at most very lightly addictive. > Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes. I don't think we can draw that conclusion. Just because something helps you get over an addiction doesn't mean it's the addictive part. Compare and contrast the absolute ineffectiveness of nicotine plasters for getting people off their cigarette habit. (Even though they are a great nicotine delivery mechanism otherwise.) Similarly, I don't think anyone ever got addicted to nicotine plasters.

radlad 2y ago
I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare. I think it's horrible to tell people nicotine is not addictive. Quitting is very difficult. A quick Google offers plenty of alternative study results. I personally know people who were addicted to nicotine patches. One reason they are likely not as addictive as smoking is because they take much longer to reach noticeable concentrations in your bloodstream. Vaping also takes longer than smoking but not nearly as long as patches. Compare this to oral vs IV drug use. Edit: I will add that while I do strongly believe nicotine is addictive, I also believe smoking is more addictive and that it is primarily all the other chemicals in tobacco smoke that cause most physical harm to the body.
- gwern 2y ago
  > I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare.
  - radlad 2y ago
    Are you implying that by smoking I caused irreversible changes to my brain that meant I was now capable of being addicted to the pure nicotine in the ecig that I switched to? I switched entirely to ecigs for two years before quitting. My brother is still addicted to his ecig despite numerous attempts to titrate down.
    - gwern 2y ago
      > Are you implying that by smoking I caused irreversible changes to my brain Yes. Once an addict, always an addict. ('Irreversible changes to a brain' are quite common. You remember having smoked, for example...) More importantly, this was something emphasized before, and so it is irrelevant to bring it up as a supposed counterexample.
      - radlad 2y ago
        While permanent changes to a brain are a thing, I don't think being addicted to smoking means you are addicted to drinking so I don't follow the "logic." You're stating that nicotine is not addictive unless you were previously addicted to nicotine in the presence of MAOIs, in which case nicotine on its own is addictive now? I fail to understand how nicotine on its own would satisfy an addictive craving created by a different chemical or combination of chemicals, if it isn't addictive itself. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about a previously emphasized counterexample either. Could you elaborate?
        eru 2y ago
        > I fail to understand how nicotine on its own would satisfy an addictive craving created by a different chemical or combination of chemicals, if it isn't addictive itself. It's pretty hard to get addicted to nicotine patches, if you never smoked.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        radlad 2y ago
thinkingemote 2y ago
as a non smoker, I followed Gwern's micro dosing experiments with nicotine. Small 0.5mg 1/2 tablet doses when doing a task I wanted to reinforce. Then I found myself taking a one or two of these 1mg tablets during the day when driving as I want to increase good habits when driving. Then habitually whenever I felt like it, sometimes with a coffee and a book. They were the weakest mg you could get, and there was no direct feeling of their effect. I did feel increasing anxiety which lead to physical symptoms during this time, but the tablets didn't seem to make any direct effect on the anxiety, I didn't take the nicotine to calm down and I didn't connect the two together (its only now writing this comment that I'm thinking they may be connected) So it was definitely addicting, however, when the box ran out, stopping seemed to be instantaneous and painless. I did quit because I realised I wasnt using it as I wanted to initially and it was becoming a habit. I do remember a couple of times looking for the tablets, checking to see if there wasn't some in the car. mild. The feeling of anxiety is gone now too. So I'm not sure if I would say I was addicted, but maybe I was. It was certainly habit forming!
- eru 2y ago
  When you say 'tablet doses', did you mean you swallowed them? Nicotine isn't really absorbed well that way. That's also why Gwern's self experiment didn't really work. In any case, yes, stimulants can cause anxiety in people. (Weirdly, they can also help with anxiety. The brain is weird.)
  - radlad 2y ago
    Nicotine tablets probably refer to lozenges taken sublingually.
    - eru 2y ago
      OK! Yes, that route works.
const_cast 2y ago
As someone who smoked, vaped and quit - nicotine is extremely addictive. Like, by far the most addictive substance I have ever used. When you abstain from nicotine, you will get physical withdrawal symptoms. Nausea, headaches, heart racing, that type of thing. But you'll also get psychological symptoms - paranoia, anxiety, irritability. I know for a fact it's the nicotine because: 1. Vaping contains a lot of nicotine, too, and it satisfies the craving. 2. You can actually feel the nicotine hitting your blood when you relapse. 3. Nicotine patches remove the withdrawal symptoms.
- eru 2y ago
  And yet, nicotine patches do not cause any addiction.
  - const_cast 2y ago
    According to who? Certainly going from a 21 mg patch to nothing will give you withdrawal - I know because I tried it. Nicotine patches aren't perfect, and the reason they might be less addicting is because there's no hit. It's a constant stream of nicotine which ends up feeling like no nicotine at all. Instead, it feels like it's just preventing the affects of a lack of nicotine, i.e. it's inhibiting withdrawal. But it's not giving you the effects of nicotine. Like when you smoke a cigarette you immediately feel relaxed and happy and it's a very sudden effect. But with nicotine patches since there's no curves you don't get that.
    - eru 2y ago
      > Instead, it feels like it's just preventing the affects of a lack of nicotine, i.e. it's inhibiting withdrawal. But it's not giving you the effects of nicotine. Nope. I never smoked, but tried patches, and I certainly felt the effects. (And I didn't have any withdrawal that I needed to inhibit.) My non-smoking friends who tried had the same experience.
      - const_cast 2y ago
        Okay sure, for you, someone who didn't smoke and therefore did not become accustomed (tolerant?) to the immediate effects of a nicotine hit. But, as a cessation tool, which is what they are, this has been my experience. And, I would be hesitant about using nicotine patches or something like Zyn recreationally. Nicotine, even by itself, is harmful to the cardiovascular system over a long period of time.

by eru 2y ago

radlad 2y ago

I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare. I think it's horrible to tell people nicotine is not addictive. Quitting is very difficult. A quick Google offers plenty of alternative study results. I personally know people who were addicted to nicotine patches. One reason they are likely not as addictive as smoking is because they take much longer to reach noticeable concentrations in your bloodstream. Vaping also takes longer than smoking but not nearly as long as patches. Compare this to oral vs IV drug use. Edit: I will add that while I do strongly believe nicotine is addictive, I also believe smoking is more addictive and that it is primarily all the other chemicals in tobacco smoke that cause most physical harm to the body.

gwern 2y ago
> I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare.
- radlad 2y ago
  Are you implying that by smoking I caused irreversible changes to my brain that meant I was now capable of being addicted to the pure nicotine in the ecig that I switched to? I switched entirely to ecigs for two years before quitting. My brother is still addicted to his ecig despite numerous attempts to titrate down.
  - gwern 2y ago
    > Are you implying that by smoking I caused irreversible changes to my brain Yes. Once an addict, always an addict. ('Irreversible changes to a brain' are quite common. You remember having smoked, for example...) More importantly, this was something emphasized before, and so it is irrelevant to bring it up as a supposed counterexample.
    - radlad 2y ago
      While permanent changes to a brain are a thing, I don't think being addicted to smoking means you are addicted to drinking so I don't follow the "logic." You're stating that nicotine is not addictive unless you were previously addicted to nicotine in the presence of MAOIs, in which case nicotine on its own is addictive now? I fail to understand how nicotine on its own would satisfy an addictive craving created by a different chemical or combination of chemicals, if it isn't addictive itself. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean about a previously emphasized counterexample either. Could you elaborate?
      - eru 2y ago
        > I fail to understand how nicotine on its own would satisfy an addictive craving created by a different chemical or combination of chemicals, if it isn't addictive itself. It's pretty hard to get addicted to nicotine patches, if you never smoked.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        radlad 2y ago

thinkingemote 2y ago

as a non smoker, I followed Gwern's micro dosing experiments with nicotine. Small 0.5mg 1/2 tablet doses when doing a task I wanted to reinforce. Then I found myself taking a one or two of these 1mg tablets during the day when driving as I want to increase good habits when driving. Then habitually whenever I felt like it, sometimes with a coffee and a book. They were the weakest mg you could get, and there was no direct feeling of their effect. I did feel increasing anxiety which lead to physical symptoms during this time, but the tablets didn't seem to make any direct effect on the anxiety, I didn't take the nicotine to calm down and I didn't connect the two together (its only now writing this comment that I'm thinking they may be connected) So it was definitely addicting, however, when the box ran out, stopping seemed to be instantaneous and painless. I did quit because I realised I wasnt using it as I wanted to initially and it was becoming a habit. I do remember a couple of times looking for the tablets, checking to see if there wasn't some in the car. mild. The feeling of anxiety is gone now too. So I'm not sure if I would say I was addicted, but maybe I was. It was certainly habit forming!

eru 2y ago
When you say 'tablet doses', did you mean you swallowed them? Nicotine isn't really absorbed well that way. That's also why Gwern's self experiment didn't really work. In any case, yes, stimulants can cause anxiety in people. (Weirdly, they can also help with anxiety. The brain is weird.)
- radlad 2y ago
  Nicotine tablets probably refer to lozenges taken sublingually.
  - eru 2y ago
    OK! Yes, that route works.

const_cast 2y ago

As someone who smoked, vaped and quit - nicotine is extremely addictive. Like, by far the most addictive substance I have ever used. When you abstain from nicotine, you will get physical withdrawal symptoms. Nausea, headaches, heart racing, that type of thing. But you'll also get psychological symptoms - paranoia, anxiety, irritability. I know for a fact it's the nicotine because: 1. Vaping contains a lot of nicotine, too, and it satisfies the craving. 2. You can actually feel the nicotine hitting your blood when you relapse. 3. Nicotine patches remove the withdrawal symptoms.

eru 2y ago
And yet, nicotine patches do not cause any addiction.
- const_cast 2y ago
  According to who? Certainly going from a 21 mg patch to nothing will give you withdrawal - I know because I tried it. Nicotine patches aren't perfect, and the reason they might be less addicting is because there's no hit. It's a constant stream of nicotine which ends up feeling like no nicotine at all. Instead, it feels like it's just preventing the affects of a lack of nicotine, i.e. it's inhibiting withdrawal. But it's not giving you the effects of nicotine. Like when you smoke a cigarette you immediately feel relaxed and happy and it's a very sudden effect. But with nicotine patches since there's no curves you don't get that.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Instead, it feels like it's just preventing the affects of a lack of nicotine, i.e. it's inhibiting withdrawal. But it's not giving you the effects of nicotine. Nope. I never smoked, but tried patches, and I certainly felt the effects. (And I didn't have any withdrawal that I needed to inhibit.) My non-smoking friends who tried had the same experience.
    - const_cast 2y ago
      Okay sure, for you, someone who didn't smoke and therefore did not become accustomed (tolerant?) to the immediate effects of a nicotine hit. But, as a cessation tool, which is what they are, this has been my experience. And, I would be hesitant about using nicotine patches or something like Zyn recreationally. Nicotine, even by itself, is harmful to the cardiovascular system over a long period of time.