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There are neurogenic, anti-tumor, and anti-inflammatory properties and no direct chemical addiction mechanisms as present in nicotine. Additionally your statem

by elif 1y ago

There are neurogenic, anti-tumor, and anti-inflammatory properties and no direct chemical addiction mechanisms as present in nicotine. Additionally your statement about "any kind of smoke" while kind of true does not recognize the disproportionate concentration of carcinogens specific to cigarette smoke. It also misses the disclaimer that nearly as many cannabis users vape and consume edibles (roughly 70%) as do smoke (only 79%) which is certainly better than smoke, even before you add the benefits of water filtration and cooling common for marijuana users.

zwnow 1y ago
Where are the long time studies on vaping? I regularly read news about vaping with new findings on it being unhealthy... Not gonna defend smoking but also not gonna defend any other loser behavior regarding drugs.
- elif 1y ago
  What do you think is the harm of vapor that, for instance, begins it's life at 163 degrees, is filtered for particulates through water, and then cooled by flowing through ice and can be as low as 25 degrees depending only on breath speed? I'm not saying it's nothing but I'm also not going to pretend it's any worse than, say, living in a wildfire state. Are you saying that is comparable to a 800 degree ember 4 inches from your mouth?
- david-gpu 1y ago
  > not gonna defend any other loser behavior regarding drugs Is that how you feel about drinking coffee and wine as well, or does it only apply to some other drugs? Is it the same for prescription drugs?
  - zwnow 1y ago
    Coffee isn't nearly as self destructive as smoking or marijuana. Moderation is key for everything. Unfortunately the alcoholics I know and the weed addicts aren't the biggest fans of moderation. I lost friends to both so yea. Also I can't make people passively consume coffee. People who smoke weed are often extremely inconsiderate on who they affect with that.
    - david-gpu 1y ago
      In your mind, is every person who drinks an alcoholic? Is every person who consumes cannabis an addict? I lost my dad to alcohol and tobacco. The biggest cannabis users in college would often (not aleays) drop out of school. So I am not blind to the downsides of these drugs. However, I also recognize that there are a zillion people out there that drink alcohol or consume cannabis in moderation, and feel no desire to lump them all into a category of "losers", nor treat them with contempt or disrespect. To each their own.
epgui 1y ago
You’re talking about different things. The study and the topic at hand is not addiction or cancer, it’s COPD, emphysema, and lung volume. Any smoke (anything hot, even steam) will cause lung damage. They’re incredibly fragile organs. (biochemist)
- elif 1y ago
  I hear you, but coming from someone that spent about 20 years of his life smoking 4-8 joints per day, who quit smoking to use precise equipment to make filtered vapor at roughly ambient air temperature for the last 5 years, and also who just spent 2 years abstaining completely, you are comparing apples and lasagna.
eru 1y ago
> There are neurogenic, anti-tumor, and anti-inflammatory properties and no direct chemical addiction mechanisms as present in nicotine. Huh? Nicotine ain't addictive either. See https://gwern.net/nicotine https://gwern.net/nicotine for more than you wanted to know. Just don't smoke. Get your fix (whether nicotine or marijuana) in other ways. Vape or chew gum or use edibles or stick on a nicotine plaster, etc.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- radlad 1y ago
  Nicotine is absolutely addictive. Ask anyone who uses an e-cigarette. Vape liquids typically do not contain MAOIs yet are quite difficult to get off - less than smoking though, likely due to the longer activation duration. Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes.
  - eru 1y ago
    Please see the link. Especially this section https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness Nicotine by itself is at most very lightly addictive. > Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes. I don't think we can draw that conclusion. Just because something helps you get over an addiction doesn't mean it's the addictive part. Compare and contrast the absolute ineffectiveness of nicotine plasters for getting people off their cigarette habit. (Even though they are a great nicotine delivery mechanism otherwise.) Similarly, I don't think anyone ever got addicted to nicotine plasters.
    - radlad 1y ago
      I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare. I think it's horrible to tell people nicotine is not addictive. Quitting is very difficult. A quick Google offers plenty of alternative study results. I personally know people who were addicted to nicotine patches. One reason they are likely not as addictive as smoking is because they take much longer to reach noticeable concentrations in your bloodstream. Vaping also takes longer than smoking but not nearly as long as patches. Compare this to oral vs IV drug use. Edit: I will add that while I do strongly believe nicotine is addictive, I also believe smoking is more addictive and that it is primarily all the other chemicals in tobacco smoke that cause most physical harm to the body.

by elif 1y ago

zwnow 1y ago

Where are the long time studies on vaping? I regularly read news about vaping with new findings on it being unhealthy... Not gonna defend smoking but also not gonna defend any other loser behavior regarding drugs.

elif 1y ago
What do you think is the harm of vapor that, for instance, begins it's life at 163 degrees, is filtered for particulates through water, and then cooled by flowing through ice and can be as low as 25 degrees depending only on breath speed? I'm not saying it's nothing but I'm also not going to pretend it's any worse than, say, living in a wildfire state. Are you saying that is comparable to a 800 degree ember 4 inches from your mouth?
david-gpu 1y ago
> not gonna defend any other loser behavior regarding drugs Is that how you feel about drinking coffee and wine as well, or does it only apply to some other drugs? Is it the same for prescription drugs?
- zwnow 1y ago
  Coffee isn't nearly as self destructive as smoking or marijuana. Moderation is key for everything. Unfortunately the alcoholics I know and the weed addicts aren't the biggest fans of moderation. I lost friends to both so yea. Also I can't make people passively consume coffee. People who smoke weed are often extremely inconsiderate on who they affect with that.
  - david-gpu 1y ago
    In your mind, is every person who drinks an alcoholic? Is every person who consumes cannabis an addict? I lost my dad to alcohol and tobacco. The biggest cannabis users in college would often (not aleays) drop out of school. So I am not blind to the downsides of these drugs. However, I also recognize that there are a zillion people out there that drink alcohol or consume cannabis in moderation, and feel no desire to lump them all into a category of "losers", nor treat them with contempt or disrespect. To each their own.

epgui 1y ago

You’re talking about different things. The study and the topic at hand is not addiction or cancer, it’s COPD, emphysema, and lung volume. Any smoke (anything hot, even steam) will cause lung damage. They’re incredibly fragile organs. (biochemist)

elif 1y ago
I hear you, but coming from someone that spent about 20 years of his life smoking 4-8 joints per day, who quit smoking to use precise equipment to make filtered vapor at roughly ambient air temperature for the last 5 years, and also who just spent 2 years abstaining completely, you are comparing apples and lasagna.

eru 1y ago

> There are neurogenic, anti-tumor, and anti-inflammatory properties and no direct chemical addiction mechanisms as present in nicotine. Huh? Nicotine ain't addictive either. See https://gwern.net/nicotine https://gwern.net/nicotine for more than you wanted to know. Just don't smoke. Get your fix (whether nicotine or marijuana) in other ways. Vape or chew gum or use edibles or stick on a nicotine plaster, etc.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
radlad 1y ago
Nicotine is absolutely addictive. Ask anyone who uses an e-cigarette. Vape liquids typically do not contain MAOIs yet are quite difficult to get off - less than smoking though, likely due to the longer activation duration. Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes.
- eru 1y ago
  Please see the link. Especially this section https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness https://gwern.net/nicotine#addictiveness Nicotine by itself is at most very lightly addictive. > Nicotine being the addictive part is also why many smokers are successfully able to make the switch to e-cigarettes. I don't think we can draw that conclusion. Just because something helps you get over an addiction doesn't mean it's the addictive part. Compare and contrast the absolute ineffectiveness of nicotine plasters for getting people off their cigarette habit. (Even though they are a great nicotine delivery mechanism otherwise.) Similarly, I don't think anyone ever got addicted to nicotine plasters.
  - radlad 1y ago
    I did and while I like Gwern's writing, I think in this case it's plain wrong. I say this as a smoker who switched to e-cigarettes for a few years and then quit cold turkey. Switching was easy. The first 72 hours of quitting was a nightmare. I think it's horrible to tell people nicotine is not addictive. Quitting is very difficult. A quick Google offers plenty of alternative study results. I personally know people who were addicted to nicotine patches. One reason they are likely not as addictive as smoking is because they take much longer to reach noticeable concentrations in your bloodstream. Vaping also takes longer than smoking but not nearly as long as patches. Compare this to oral vs IV drug use. Edit: I will add that while I do strongly believe nicotine is addictive, I also believe smoking is more addictive and that it is primarily all the other chemicals in tobacco smoke that cause most physical harm to the body.