4 ms·

I'm sorry, but that sounds like an excuse. Yes, when you have to vote between the lesser of two evils, but one of them is blatantly more evil and incompetent t

by _djo_ 1y ago

I'm sorry, but that sounds like an excuse. Yes, when you have to vote between the lesser of two evils, but one of them is blatantly more evil and incompetent than the other, you're responsible for choosing the more evil and incompetent option and the damage that results. No system is perfect, and few countries provide morally and politically pure options to vote for in national elections. So an informed and engaged population often needs to vote tactically, understanding that establishments change slowly, and work to elect more effective candidates at local & state level who can work their way up to the national stage. Voting in the anti-establishment choice just because voters are upset that progress is slow and politics is hard is the stuff of tantrums, and voting adults are supposed to be beyond that.

timschmidt 1y ago
It seems like you're trying to argue and assign blame. I'm not here for that. Just explaining what I understand of what the blue collar folks I know are thinking.
- _djo_ 1y ago
  Not trying to argue, though blame is deserved for those who voted for Trump this time around. I'm not saying that out of anger, that's just the nature of democracy and that the corollary of a voting public being able to choose their leaders means they're responsible when they make bad choices. That, in turn should trigger national debates, reflection, and reform hopefully, else the US will continue to head down an ever-increasingly authoritarian and populist path. I certainly don't want the US to go down that path, nor do I enjoy seeing the damage being done now. I just believe that if we coddle voters who made terrible political choices they're just going to keep making those bad choices election after election.
  - timschmidt 1y ago
    I think it's worthwhile to consider that what you said here: > Not trying to argue, though blame is deserved for those who voted for Trump this time around. > I'm not saying that out of anger, that's just the nature of democracy and that the corollary of a voting public being able to choose their leaders means they're responsible when they make bad choices. That, in turn should trigger national debates, reflection, and reform hopefully, else the US will continue to head down an ever-increasingly authoritarian and populist path. Is almost to a word how the Right feels about the Left as well. We're watching that play out. Conflict escalation is even less fun on the societal scale.
    - _djo_ 1y ago
      This isn't a right or left issue, and I'm not even an American. I have no political affiliation here except seeing a country I've long admired facing a profound challenge. This is about significant portions of American voters turning away from established institutions—the scientific community, professional civil service, and constitutional checks and balances that have been foundational to American strength. I could maybe understand why people voted for the anti-establishment candidate the first time around. Legitimate frustrations exist with a system many felt wasn't working for them. But the second time around, with clear evidence of the consequences, is not defensible and shouldn't be excused. This is a form of reactionary populism and it's deeply dangerous for the US's power, prosperity, and political freedoms. Ask Argentinians what Peronism, as another form of anti-establishment populism, did for them. There are countless other examples to learn from too.
      - timschmidt 1y ago
        I am American. Most of the people I know are also American. I'm trying to tell you why lots of my fellow Americans voted this way. aaronbaugher's comment in this thread is also insightful.
        _djo_ 1y ago
        I understand why many Americans voted that way, I’m just saying that they are responsible for the inevitable consequences. Regardless of motivation, electoral choices have consequences that voters collectively own. Again, it’s not like we haven’t seen this before in other countries that have voted in populists. It’s always the same cycle: Widespread dissatisfaction promotes populists who correctly identify legitimate problems but offer implausibly simple solutions to solve them. Voters choose the populists out of anger & frustration, only to find that they can’t solve the problems but create the kind of institutional damage that reduces the ability of any successors to solve those problems. Trump is a populist and we’re already seeing that institutional damage merely 100 days in. There’s no indication that the outcome will be any better than all the other historical parallels.

by _djo_ 1y ago

timschmidt 1y ago

It seems like you're trying to argue and assign blame. I'm not here for that. Just explaining what I understand of what the blue collar folks I know are thinking.

_djo_ 1y ago
Not trying to argue, though blame is deserved for those who voted for Trump this time around. I'm not saying that out of anger, that's just the nature of democracy and that the corollary of a voting public being able to choose their leaders means they're responsible when they make bad choices. That, in turn should trigger national debates, reflection, and reform hopefully, else the US will continue to head down an ever-increasingly authoritarian and populist path. I certainly don't want the US to go down that path, nor do I enjoy seeing the damage being done now. I just believe that if we coddle voters who made terrible political choices they're just going to keep making those bad choices election after election.
- timschmidt 1y ago
  I think it's worthwhile to consider that what you said here: > Not trying to argue, though blame is deserved for those who voted for Trump this time around. > I'm not saying that out of anger, that's just the nature of democracy and that the corollary of a voting public being able to choose their leaders means they're responsible when they make bad choices. That, in turn should trigger national debates, reflection, and reform hopefully, else the US will continue to head down an ever-increasingly authoritarian and populist path. Is almost to a word how the Right feels about the Left as well. We're watching that play out. Conflict escalation is even less fun on the societal scale.
  - _djo_ 1y ago
    This isn't a right or left issue, and I'm not even an American. I have no political affiliation here except seeing a country I've long admired facing a profound challenge. This is about significant portions of American voters turning away from established institutions—the scientific community, professional civil service, and constitutional checks and balances that have been foundational to American strength. I could maybe understand why people voted for the anti-establishment candidate the first time around. Legitimate frustrations exist with a system many felt wasn't working for them. But the second time around, with clear evidence of the consequences, is not defensible and shouldn't be excused. This is a form of reactionary populism and it's deeply dangerous for the US's power, prosperity, and political freedoms. Ask Argentinians what Peronism, as another form of anti-establishment populism, did for them. There are countless other examples to learn from too.
    - timschmidt 1y ago
      I am American. Most of the people I know are also American. I'm trying to tell you why lots of my fellow Americans voted this way. aaronbaugher's comment in this thread is also insightful.
      - _djo_ 1y ago
        I understand why many Americans voted that way, I’m just saying that they are responsible for the inevitable consequences. Regardless of motivation, electoral choices have consequences that voters collectively own. Again, it’s not like we haven’t seen this before in other countries that have voted in populists. It’s always the same cycle: Widespread dissatisfaction promotes populists who correctly identify legitimate problems but offer implausibly simple solutions to solve them. Voters choose the populists out of anger & frustration, only to find that they can’t solve the problems but create the kind of institutional damage that reduces the ability of any successors to solve those problems. Trump is a populist and we’re already seeing that institutional damage merely 100 days in. There’s no indication that the outcome will be any better than all the other historical parallels.