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I am trying to understand the Catholic Church’s side here. At first blush, this sounds bad because the only real accountability is done via civil authorities be

I am trying to understand the Catholic Church’s side here. At first blush, this sounds bad because the only real accountability is done via civil authorities because if it’s handled only within the Church then the only penalty are things like defrocking or banning from the church. But the Church isn’t a legal authority. I also know that the Church is supposed to encourage the reporter to self report to civil authorities and seek help. The church also lack the ability to prevent abusers from harming vulnerable people. At the same time I understand their position on clergy-parishioner privilege.

trollbridge 1y ago
The Catholic Church has long held that a confession is somewhat similar to praying directly to God and that anything heard is to be kept confidential, other than priests discussing amongst themselves in the aggregate. Priests aren’t to take any action based on what they hear in the confessional. In theory, it should be anonymous, but that is largely symbolic these days. A priest can certainly tell someone at the confessional how to seek absolution and that could include turning themselves in. It should be kind of obvious that id the state wins here, abusers simply won’t confess in confessionals anymore. Not exactly a big win for the state.
- wat10000 1y ago
  People aren’t perfectly rational. Some will feel compelled to confess anyway. Some will not know about this requirement, or believe the priest won’t follow it, or just think they’re special and won’t get caught. I don’t imagine it will be a big effect, but it will catch some.
  - harimau777 1y ago
    On the other hand, there could be numerous innocent people who would be unwilling to confess because of the risk that the priest will report to authorities. It's not hard to imagine a world where a government passes laws requiring priests to report homosexuality, immigration status, or attendance at anti-government protests.
    - wat10000 1y ago
      Why would innocent people confess to child abuse? No, it's not hard to imagine those kinds of laws, but that doesn't mean this law has to be bad as well. You have to look at the content of a law, not just its shape, to judge it. The only difference between a law making it illegal to punch someone in the nose and a law making it illegal to make the sign of the cross is the details of the arm movements.
      - cgriswald 1y ago
        This law as written doesn't require a confession or proof, but only suspicion and not of a crime, but of the law's definition of 'child abuse' which at its broadest defines abuse as "...injury of a child by any person under circumstances which cause harm to the child's health, welfare, or safety,..." It also has a specific carve out for members of the clergy requiring them to report it even when they suspect it only from privileged conversations.
        wat10000 1y ago
        Mandatory reporting is nothing new. Applying it to the confessional is. But I really don’t see a reason for the state to consider a confessional to be privileged in a legal sense. The religion’s views on its rituals carry no legal weight.
        cgriswald 1y ago
        The state has already legal defined confession to be in the class of privileged conversations. Given the sensitive topics a person might address in confession, I think it is pretty easy to see why it might be privileged quite irrespective (and in fact, despite) the religions views on its own rituals.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  Does the Church feel that not reporting is OK if it could cause say a child to continue to be abused if the police never find out? Truly trying to understand how that moral position is resolved. I would be beside myself if I knew I did nothing to try to stop it including reporting to authorities to have the person arrested
  - Levitz 1y ago
    If the Church felt it was ok to report it, they wouldn't find themselves in the position to report to begin with. The point of the confession is the privacy itself and it might be the case that through this method more abusers confess and the whole thing is a net good for the world.
  - harimau777 1y ago
    I think that the Catholic Church would argue that violating confidentiality could lead to people not confessing not only now but in the future. That in turn could lead to numerous souls suffering in hell for eternity. Certainly people who don't share the Catholic Church's religious beliefs may not agree, but it does seem logical that eternal suffering in hell would outweigh temporary suffering during life; even something as horrible as child sexual abuse. I imagine that priests in that situation would pay a heavy psychological toll for maintaining confidentiality. However, they believe that in the long run it is the best, most moral course of action.
    - Tadpole9181 1y ago
      If I believed I would go to Hell if I didn't skin a cat on a monthly basis, nobody would give me an exception from animal cruelty laws. If a father confesses he is sexually abusing their child, the priest has an obligation to report it. Let the father burn in Hell (he's a child abuser anyway, that's what it's for isn't it?) or the priest decide to be an accomplice to the crime.
  - rawgabbit 1y ago
    The issue is privileged communication such as attorney client communications and clergy believer confessional. Currently that is protected under law. Outside of the confessional, church officials acting as teachers, counselors, administrators, care givers are already obliged to report potential abuse.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
camcil 1y ago
The Church's side is simple: this is a sacrament and the information heard cannot be used at all by the priest, for anything- whatsoever, without exception. "Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives. This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal," because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament." [CCC 1467]
- jll29 1y ago
  It seems there is not a single attested case where this was violated in human history, which - if true - is most remarkable.
  - camcil 1y ago
    It certainly happens [0]. [0] https://aleteia.org/2018/02/10/australian-priest-excommunicated-for-breaching-the-seal-of-the-confessional https://aleteia.org/2018/02/10/australian-priest-excommunica...
- BobaFloutist 1y ago
  So if someone confesses that they have made concrete, actionable plans to shoot up a school and have the guns and they're still planning to do it but they want forgiveness for their actions so far, the priest is supposed to just sit tight? Or if they confess "Yeah I put a bomb under this church and it's going to go off in five minutes, but wait don't go I have more to confess" the priest is supposed to just sit there and let them finish and not make any efforts to leave or even cause others to evacuate? Or if someone says "I was part of a plan to assassinate the pope, there's a guy scaling the Sistine Chapel with a sniper rifle right now but I feel pretty bad about it" to a priest in the Vatican who just needs to holler to prevent the pope being assassinated, he's supposed to just sit there and wait for God to make his choices?
  - 1y ago
jlkuester7 1y ago
> if it’s handled only within the Church then the only penalty are things like defrocking or banning from the church To be clear, things said under the "seal of the confessional" cannot be shared by the priest with anyone else _even within the Catholic Church._ This particular situation is not a matter of the church trying to handle matters internally, but more of a recognition that the penitent is confessing their sins to God and the priest is only acting "in persona Cristi" (and thereby is prevented from pursuing other personal or societal objectives based on information revealed).
- trollbridge 1y ago
  Someone can literally confess to a priest he is stealing from the diocese, and the priest will keep it under seal. In the confessional, though, the priest can give spiritual advice on how to make penance. This could mean “go turn yourself in to the civil authorities”, “pay back what you stole”, or “say 3 Hail Marys each morning for a week”. Another way to view this is that the confessional is basically anonymous. Governments hate anonymity.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    I totally understand the anonymous position. I just have a hard time reconciling not reporting a child abuser.
    - harimau777 1y ago
      I think that the Catholic Church would agree that it is difficult to reconcile and it would be worrying if you didn't feel that way.
  - AStonesThrow 1y ago
    No, a priest must never coerce a penitent to betray themselves. This would be tantamount to the priest betraying the penitent, don't you see? Confessors are generally advised to assign satisfaction [penance] that consist of prayers or other strictly spiritual works, so that they are easily completed and remain entirely in the internal forum. A priest who tried to withhold absolution from a penitent, on the condition of the penitent turning themselves in or confessing to secular authority, that priest would be sanctioned, up to the penalties for breaking the seal of confessional.

trollbridge 1y ago

The Catholic Church has long held that a confession is somewhat similar to praying directly to God and that anything heard is to be kept confidential, other than priests discussing amongst themselves in the aggregate. Priests aren’t to take any action based on what they hear in the confessional. In theory, it should be anonymous, but that is largely symbolic these days. A priest can certainly tell someone at the confessional how to seek absolution and that could include turning themselves in. It should be kind of obvious that id the state wins here, abusers simply won’t confess in confessionals anymore. Not exactly a big win for the state.

wat10000 1y ago
People aren’t perfectly rational. Some will feel compelled to confess anyway. Some will not know about this requirement, or believe the priest won’t follow it, or just think they’re special and won’t get caught. I don’t imagine it will be a big effect, but it will catch some.
- harimau777 1y ago
  On the other hand, there could be numerous innocent people who would be unwilling to confess because of the risk that the priest will report to authorities. It's not hard to imagine a world where a government passes laws requiring priests to report homosexuality, immigration status, or attendance at anti-government protests.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    Why would innocent people confess to child abuse? No, it's not hard to imagine those kinds of laws, but that doesn't mean this law has to be bad as well. You have to look at the content of a law, not just its shape, to judge it. The only difference between a law making it illegal to punch someone in the nose and a law making it illegal to make the sign of the cross is the details of the arm movements.
    - cgriswald 1y ago
      This law as written doesn't require a confession or proof, but only suspicion and not of a crime, but of the law's definition of 'child abuse' which at its broadest defines abuse as "...injury of a child by any person under circumstances which cause harm to the child's health, welfare, or safety,..." It also has a specific carve out for members of the clergy requiring them to report it even when they suspect it only from privileged conversations.
      - wat10000 1y ago
        Mandatory reporting is nothing new. Applying it to the confessional is. But I really don’t see a reason for the state to consider a confessional to be privileged in a legal sense. The religion’s views on its rituals carry no legal weight.
        cgriswald 1y ago
        The state has already legal defined confession to be in the class of privileged conversations. Given the sensitive topics a person might address in confession, I think it is pretty easy to see why it might be privileged quite irrespective (and in fact, despite) the religions views on its own rituals.
firesteelrain 1y ago
Does the Church feel that not reporting is OK if it could cause say a child to continue to be abused if the police never find out? Truly trying to understand how that moral position is resolved. I would be beside myself if I knew I did nothing to try to stop it including reporting to authorities to have the person arrested
- Levitz 1y ago
  If the Church felt it was ok to report it, they wouldn't find themselves in the position to report to begin with. The point of the confession is the privacy itself and it might be the case that through this method more abusers confess and the whole thing is a net good for the world.
- harimau777 1y ago
  I think that the Catholic Church would argue that violating confidentiality could lead to people not confessing not only now but in the future. That in turn could lead to numerous souls suffering in hell for eternity. Certainly people who don't share the Catholic Church's religious beliefs may not agree, but it does seem logical that eternal suffering in hell would outweigh temporary suffering during life; even something as horrible as child sexual abuse. I imagine that priests in that situation would pay a heavy psychological toll for maintaining confidentiality. However, they believe that in the long run it is the best, most moral course of action.
  - Tadpole9181 1y ago
    If I believed I would go to Hell if I didn't skin a cat on a monthly basis, nobody would give me an exception from animal cruelty laws. If a father confesses he is sexually abusing their child, the priest has an obligation to report it. Let the father burn in Hell (he's a child abuser anyway, that's what it's for isn't it?) or the priest decide to be an accomplice to the crime.
- rawgabbit 1y ago
  The issue is privileged communication such as attorney client communications and clergy believer confessional. Currently that is protected under law. Outside of the confessional, church officials acting as teachers, counselors, administrators, care givers are already obliged to report potential abuse.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

camcil 1y ago

The Church's side is simple: this is a sacrament and the information heard cannot be used at all by the priest, for anything- whatsoever, without exception. "Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives. This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal," because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament." [CCC 1467]

jll29 1y ago
It seems there is not a single attested case where this was violated in human history, which - if true - is most remarkable.
- camcil 1y ago
  It certainly happens [0]. [0] https://aleteia.org/2018/02/10/australian-priest-excommunicated-for-breaching-the-seal-of-the-confessional https://aleteia.org/2018/02/10/australian-priest-excommunica...
BobaFloutist 1y ago
So if someone confesses that they have made concrete, actionable plans to shoot up a school and have the guns and they're still planning to do it but they want forgiveness for their actions so far, the priest is supposed to just sit tight? Or if they confess "Yeah I put a bomb under this church and it's going to go off in five minutes, but wait don't go I have more to confess" the priest is supposed to just sit there and let them finish and not make any efforts to leave or even cause others to evacuate? Or if someone says "I was part of a plan to assassinate the pope, there's a guy scaling the Sistine Chapel with a sniper rifle right now but I feel pretty bad about it" to a priest in the Vatican who just needs to holler to prevent the pope being assassinated, he's supposed to just sit there and wait for God to make his choices?
- 1y ago

jlkuester7 1y ago

> if it’s handled only within the Church then the only penalty are things like defrocking or banning from the church To be clear, things said under the "seal of the confessional" cannot be shared by the priest with anyone else _even within the Catholic Church._ This particular situation is not a matter of the church trying to handle matters internally, but more of a recognition that the penitent is confessing their sins to God and the priest is only acting "in persona Cristi" (and thereby is prevented from pursuing other personal or societal objectives based on information revealed).

trollbridge 1y ago
Someone can literally confess to a priest he is stealing from the diocese, and the priest will keep it under seal. In the confessional, though, the priest can give spiritual advice on how to make penance. This could mean “go turn yourself in to the civil authorities”, “pay back what you stole”, or “say 3 Hail Marys each morning for a week”. Another way to view this is that the confessional is basically anonymous. Governments hate anonymity.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  I totally understand the anonymous position. I just have a hard time reconciling not reporting a child abuser.
  - harimau777 1y ago
    I think that the Catholic Church would agree that it is difficult to reconcile and it would be worrying if you didn't feel that way.
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  No, a priest must never coerce a penitent to betray themselves. This would be tantamount to the priest betraying the penitent, don't you see? Confessors are generally advised to assign satisfaction [penance] that consist of prayers or other strictly spiritual works, so that they are easily completed and remain entirely in the internal forum. A priest who tried to withhold absolution from a penitent, on the condition of the penitent turning themselves in or confessing to secular authority, that priest would be sanctioned, up to the penalties for breaking the seal of confessional.