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That's the main criticism my colleagues have about Rust: a lot of unmaintained crates, and most of the time a lot of dependencies for... (almost) nothing. It s

That's the main criticism my colleagues have about Rust: a lot of unmaintained crates, and most of the time a lot of dependencies for... (almost) nothing. It seems most of Rust developers adopt the pov of web front-end developers since a few years: depend on a lot of libraries for small things, never update your project to 1.0, and abandon "quickly" to build something new... and redo it again. I really hope that alternatives like Zig or Jai will not let the community do like what they did with Rust.

vsgherzi 1y ago
It's such a cool language, maybe there's a way out or something I'm not seeing? Cloudflare, discord, and oxide seem to make it work pretty well... Always excited to see what new languages do. However it does seem like industry already has significant investment in rust so it seems like something we'll have to solve sooner than later....
- steveklabnik 1y ago
  It’s pretty simple: you choose the dependencies you want to have. Don’t like having a ton of them? Either choose carefully (which you should already be doing), or write it yourself. Most people prefer to build off of the work of others, rather than reinvent the world for every project. That trade off is a trade off though, and nothing prevents you from taking the other side of it.
  - vsgherzi 1y ago
    I get that. In general for something like a production server in cpp versus rust do you think the rust version is going to just have more lines of code associated with it or is it just the way I'm thinking about it? I love the Oxide podcast where you guys talk about your favorite crates and some of the ones you guys use in production. Are the dependencies something you guys really stress and investigate before pulling one in? I know things like axum are replaced with dropshot since you guys deemed it critical to your business (super cool crate!).
    - steveklabnik 1y ago
      You just can’t draw connections between number of dependencies, numbers of lines of code, and code you actually use, across ecosystems. See https://wiki.alopex.li/LetsBeRealAboutDependencies https://wiki.alopex.li/LetsBeRealAboutDependencies as an example of getting into the details about Rust vs C in this regard. We don’t hyper stress about it. We do take care, in some projects (like embedded ones) we need to care a lot about binary size and so pay very close attention, and we keep abreast of security issues, etc. Dropshot wasn’t written because it was critical to the business, it was because nothing had the OpenAPI support at the time we write it. It Axum or something else did, we’d have used it. We only write our own stuff when things in the ecosystem aren’t fit for purpose. We do sometimes find that our needs are different than others and so write our own, but this isn’t borne out of concern for dependency count.
      - vsgherzi 1y ago
        Thank for the reply! I see, I guess I have alot more to think about ...
  - antonvs 1y ago
    > It’s pretty simple: you choose the dependencies you want to have. Don’t like having a ton of them? Either choose carefully (which you should already be doing), or write it yourself. Exactly. Why this is even a point of discussion is, to me, an indictment of everyone raising it as an issue.
stefanos82 1y ago
I thought I was alone thinking like this. Honestly, when I want to compile a Rust project and see all these dependencies getting pulled in to get compiled along with the project, it gives me goosebumps, because I don't know whether these crates are safe and secured or not...
- vsgherzi 1y ago
  Yeah, I think in some sense it definitely looks worse than it is since a single crate like Tokio is spread among 20-30 crates. However even accounting for that there's still just alot of raw code...
- weird_trousers 1y ago
  You're definitely not alone. This situation is not new, and it isn't acceptable either. The concept of `features` when using a crate is kinda cool as "you only download / compile what you use" *but* most of the crates are very badly designed, and also developers do not tend to reinvent a very tiny wheel when they can, but heavily depend of possibly dangerous crates to just serialize or deserialize a very simple data structure... It's very annoying, as this increases the compilation time and introduces possible unsafe behavior in larger crates.
- wofo 1y ago
  Some people _do_ care about this (e.g. the proponents of this new RFC: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/3810 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/3810). However, for some reason (culture, I guess?) there isn't much momentum yet to change the status quo.
antonvs 1y ago
Your “colleagues”? You’re making the criticism, why not own it? What you’re saying is the equivalent of Donald Trump’s “many people are saying”. It’s the recourse of the intellectually stunted who can’t muster a convincing argument.
- vsgherzi 1y ago
  Because I want my mind to be changed. I see orgs and companies I respect doing things differently than me but I don't understand why. I want to use this language, I want to use this ecosystem so I'm trying to get others who disagree with me to share what they think so I could possibly see things in a different way.

vsgherzi 1y ago

It's such a cool language, maybe there's a way out or something I'm not seeing? Cloudflare, discord, and oxide seem to make it work pretty well... Always excited to see what new languages do. However it does seem like industry already has significant investment in rust so it seems like something we'll have to solve sooner than later....

steveklabnik 1y ago
It’s pretty simple: you choose the dependencies you want to have. Don’t like having a ton of them? Either choose carefully (which you should already be doing), or write it yourself. Most people prefer to build off of the work of others, rather than reinvent the world for every project. That trade off is a trade off though, and nothing prevents you from taking the other side of it.
- vsgherzi 1y ago
  I get that. In general for something like a production server in cpp versus rust do you think the rust version is going to just have more lines of code associated with it or is it just the way I'm thinking about it? I love the Oxide podcast where you guys talk about your favorite crates and some of the ones you guys use in production. Are the dependencies something you guys really stress and investigate before pulling one in? I know things like axum are replaced with dropshot since you guys deemed it critical to your business (super cool crate!).
  - steveklabnik 1y ago
    You just can’t draw connections between number of dependencies, numbers of lines of code, and code you actually use, across ecosystems. See https://wiki.alopex.li/LetsBeRealAboutDependencies https://wiki.alopex.li/LetsBeRealAboutDependencies as an example of getting into the details about Rust vs C in this regard. We don’t hyper stress about it. We do take care, in some projects (like embedded ones) we need to care a lot about binary size and so pay very close attention, and we keep abreast of security issues, etc. Dropshot wasn’t written because it was critical to the business, it was because nothing had the OpenAPI support at the time we write it. It Axum or something else did, we’d have used it. We only write our own stuff when things in the ecosystem aren’t fit for purpose. We do sometimes find that our needs are different than others and so write our own, but this isn’t borne out of concern for dependency count.
    - vsgherzi 1y ago
      Thank for the reply! I see, I guess I have alot more to think about ...
- antonvs 1y ago
  > It’s pretty simple: you choose the dependencies you want to have. Don’t like having a ton of them? Either choose carefully (which you should already be doing), or write it yourself. Exactly. Why this is even a point of discussion is, to me, an indictment of everyone raising it as an issue.

stefanos82 1y ago

I thought I was alone thinking like this. Honestly, when I want to compile a Rust project and see all these dependencies getting pulled in to get compiled along with the project, it gives me goosebumps, because I don't know whether these crates are safe and secured or not...

vsgherzi 1y ago
Yeah, I think in some sense it definitely looks worse than it is since a single crate like Tokio is spread among 20-30 crates. However even accounting for that there's still just alot of raw code...
weird_trousers 1y ago
You're definitely not alone. This situation is not new, and it isn't acceptable either. The concept of `features` when using a crate is kinda cool as "you only download / compile what you use" *but* most of the crates are very badly designed, and also developers do not tend to reinvent a very tiny wheel when they can, but heavily depend of possibly dangerous crates to just serialize or deserialize a very simple data structure... It's very annoying, as this increases the compilation time and introduces possible unsafe behavior in larger crates.
wofo 1y ago
Some people _do_ care about this (e.g. the proponents of this new RFC: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/3810 https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/3810). However, for some reason (culture, I guess?) there isn't much momentum yet to change the status quo.

antonvs 1y ago

Your “colleagues”? You’re making the criticism, why not own it? What you’re saying is the equivalent of Donald Trump’s “many people are saying”. It’s the recourse of the intellectually stunted who can’t muster a convincing argument.

vsgherzi 1y ago
Because I want my mind to be changed. I see orgs and companies I respect doing things differently than me but I don't understand why. I want to use this language, I want to use this ecosystem so I'm trying to get others who disagree with me to share what they think so I could possibly see things in a different way.