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I'm pretty sure you cease to be a Catholic when you call the Pope the anti-Christ. Infallible, God's representative on Earth, etc. Though in USAmerica, we're p

I'm pretty sure you cease to be a Catholic when you call the Pope the anti-Christ. Infallible, God's representative on Earth, etc. Though in USAmerica, we're pretty flexible on the meaning of "Christian" anyway. Certainly the loudest proclaimers have no resemblance whatsoever to the expected meaning. Those troublesome CINOs.. Gosh Darn them to Heck.

jowea 1y ago
I think Sedevacantists and similar do consider themselves Catholic, although I don't think they usually believe the main Pope is the anti-Christ
bombcar 1y ago
The popes have long ruled that once a Catholic, you're stuck as a Catholic, though they may dispense from some requirements, sometimes. So even the Pope would say that you don't cease to be a Catholic if you call him an anti-Christ. Maybe excommunicated, but to be excommunicated you have to be Catholic.
- quesera 1y ago
  It strikes me as fairly irrelevant what Catholics call ex-Catholics. I don't think you can (edit: reasonably) call yourself a Catholic if you do not adhere to certain tenets of the Catholic Church. (This is where I was going with the calls-themselves-Christian-but-aintnosuchthing comment, but it's less clear on re-read...)
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > It strikes me as fairly irrelevant what Catholics call ex-Catholics. > I don't think you can call yourself a Catholic if you do not adhere to certain tenets of the Catholic Church. If John calls himself a Catholic, and the Catholic Church up to the Pope calls him a Catholic, you are pretty silly saying he is not a Catholic because he doesn't agree with the heirarchy on things on your personal priority list for what makes someone a Catholic.
    - quesera 1y ago
      Do you call yourself a Googler after you quit? You, and they, can use whatever labels serve your, or their, purpose. But at some point it doesn't make much sense, or have much meaning, to do so. I'm a Catholic.
      - dragonwriter 1y ago
        > I'm a Catholic Does it make sense to call yourself that if you fail to hold to beliefs of the Catholic Church on central issues like “Who is a Catholic”? I mean, if we are accepting your argument that neither your belief that you are Catholic nor the Church’s beloef that you are Catholic matters and you are not Catholic despite both of those if you disagree on important matters with the teachings of the Church, what is the natural conclusion?
        quesera 1y ago
        You are making my point.
        dragonwriter 1y ago
        Er, no, I am showing that your two claims conflict. That doesn't support either of them.
        quesera 1y ago
        If one can disbelieve the Primacy of the Pope, and instead that the Pretender wearing the Pope's garments is in fact the anti-Christ, and still believe they are an adherent of Catholicism, then they have asserted a Schism in the Church and that other Catholics are Apostate. You may choose to continue to use the label "Catholic", for convenience or perhaps because you think you are the One True Catholic, but the word no longer has meaning. For a Church to place a permanent label on a person who holds Apostate beliefs is simple paternalism. A self-declared Atheist is not a Catholic, no matter what any dude with a pallium or a ferula might have to say about it.
graemep 1y ago
> I'm pretty sure you cease to be a Catholic when you call the Pope the anti-Christ. Infallible, God's representative on Earth, etc. Infallible (i.e. with the authority of a church council) only when speaking ex-cathedra on matters of church doctrine. Its never clear what it applies to and its very rarely generally accepted (maybe once every 200 years or so) that it applies to a particular teaching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Frequency_of_infallible_declarations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Frequency_...

jowea 1y ago

I think Sedevacantists and similar do consider themselves Catholic, although I don't think they usually believe the main Pope is the anti-Christ

bombcar 1y ago

The popes have long ruled that once a Catholic, you're stuck as a Catholic, though they may dispense from some requirements, sometimes. So even the Pope would say that you don't cease to be a Catholic if you call him an anti-Christ. Maybe excommunicated, but to be excommunicated you have to be Catholic.

quesera 1y ago
It strikes me as fairly irrelevant what Catholics call ex-Catholics. I don't think you can (edit: reasonably) call yourself a Catholic if you do not adhere to certain tenets of the Catholic Church. (This is where I was going with the calls-themselves-Christian-but-aintnosuchthing comment, but it's less clear on re-read...)
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > It strikes me as fairly irrelevant what Catholics call ex-Catholics. > I don't think you can call yourself a Catholic if you do not adhere to certain tenets of the Catholic Church. If John calls himself a Catholic, and the Catholic Church up to the Pope calls him a Catholic, you are pretty silly saying he is not a Catholic because he doesn't agree with the heirarchy on things on your personal priority list for what makes someone a Catholic.
  - quesera 1y ago
    Do you call yourself a Googler after you quit? You, and they, can use whatever labels serve your, or their, purpose. But at some point it doesn't make much sense, or have much meaning, to do so. I'm a Catholic.
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      > I'm a Catholic Does it make sense to call yourself that if you fail to hold to beliefs of the Catholic Church on central issues like “Who is a Catholic”? I mean, if we are accepting your argument that neither your belief that you are Catholic nor the Church’s beloef that you are Catholic matters and you are not Catholic despite both of those if you disagree on important matters with the teachings of the Church, what is the natural conclusion?
      - quesera 1y ago
        You are making my point.
        dragonwriter 1y ago
        Er, no, I am showing that your two claims conflict. That doesn't support either of them.
        quesera 1y ago
        If one can disbelieve the Primacy of the Pope, and instead that the Pretender wearing the Pope's garments is in fact the anti-Christ, and still believe they are an adherent of Catholicism, then they have asserted a Schism in the Church and that other Catholics are Apostate. You may choose to continue to use the label "Catholic", for convenience or perhaps because you think you are the One True Catholic, but the word no longer has meaning. For a Church to place a permanent label on a person who holds Apostate beliefs is simple paternalism. A self-declared Atheist is not a Catholic, no matter what any dude with a pallium or a ferula might have to say about it.

graemep 1y ago

> I'm pretty sure you cease to be a Catholic when you call the Pope the anti-Christ. Infallible, God's representative on Earth, etc. Infallible (i.e. with the authority of a church council) only when speaking ex-cathedra on matters of church doctrine. Its never clear what it applies to and its very rarely generally accepted (maybe once every 200 years or so) that it applies to a particular teaching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Frequency_of_infallible_declarations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Frequency_...