4 ms·

When you're under its thumb of oppression, all of the aesthetic takes on a very dark and sinister authoritarian tone and becomes symbolic of a lifetime of repre

When you're under its thumb of oppression, all of the aesthetic takes on a very dark and sinister authoritarian tone and becomes symbolic of a lifetime of repression and coercion. Source: raised by an extremely abusive Catholic deacon.

moralestapia 1y ago
When you're embraced by its grace, all of the aesthetic takes on a very bright and uplifting inspirational tone and becomes symbolic of a lifetime of guidance and empowerment. Source: raised by an extremely loving Catholic mother.
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - nessbot 1y ago
    No fan of the RC church here but I didn't hear any mocking. Just pointing out a counterfactual experience.
    - HaZeust 1y ago
      No one would have this loaded tone when counteracting someone's trauma in ANY subject - besides that of religion. It is a subject with a uniquely deep entrenchment of someone's fundamental life experiences and beliefs, and is the only subject where someone would have the gall to do such a thing; out of defense of, what they believe, is their very essence as a person. There is absolutely no shot that someone would respond to someone sexually abused by their parents with, "On the other hand, I have a loving spouse that makes that same action a very loving and peaceful experience!" It's brazenly distasteful.
      - khazhoux 1y ago
        There was no mention of sexual abuse.
        HaZeust 1y ago
        We call those "analogies", my friend. When someone shares that their time in the Church was marked by coercion and abuse, responding with “well, my experience was uplifting” can feel dismissive of their trauma. It’s similar to hearing a survivor of sexual assault and replying, “my sexual experiences have all been wonderful.” Both experiences can coexist as true, but leading with your positive story in that moment risks minimizing the other person’s pain. It's distasteful, and is not conducive to a productive dialogue.
        moralestapia 1y ago
        [flagged]
        soulofmischief 1y ago
        > Productive dialogue can only arise when all points of view are fairly considered You have good intent, but I disagree and believe that "fair for all" does not mean "every viewpoint deserves the same consideration". Specifically, I have spent my entire life encountering Christians who try to tell me I've just had a bad experience and that things are great on their side of the pond, if I'd take a look. But I've read the Bible front to back, I was at the top of every class in my religious studies, I engaged critically with theology during my exposure to it. And my holistic experience revealed the deep hypocrisies, conspiracies and power structures inescapably tied to the Church's past and present. The Catholic Church, and all Judeo-Christian denominations in general, are simply a vehicle for power and control. It treats its followers well, but those who don't fall in line are often subject to very dark corners upheld by violence. The truth is that while you think your perspective is more considerate than mine, it's actually more ignorant. I have seen the things you've seen in the faith, but you haven't seen what I have seen. You have an incomplete picture about the realities of the Church. And yes, it does get tiring and eventually a part of the overall trauma to have well-meaning people completely disregard the truths I share with them and tell me I don't know the Church for what it really is, retreating to their own limited experiences without considering the implications of mine. And while it wasn't your intent, as a group behavior it becomes patronizing. I'm glad you had a good Catholic mother. I had abusive, often homeless drug addicts for parents and was left in the care of a very evil man who used to do horrible things to me in the name of your god, and who was directly empowered and blessed by the Catholic Church to carry out his sick abuse. P.S. > who may be willing to improve their dialectic skills this is also patronizing and snarky especially after beginning your post with "Lv. 0 attack dismissed." That is not what I would call dialectically skillful or considerate. We should always strive to engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
    - pc86 1y ago
      Honestly not even sure it's meant to be a counterfactual experience, just more pointing out that the original comment isn't really germane. "The aesthetics of $THING are really very impressive whether you believe the underlying mythology or not." "Yeah well I had a bad experience with $THING so I don't get any joy out of it all because it's dark and sinister!" ...ok? What's the response to something like that supposed to be? Is this Reddit where we should fall over each other to apologize to someone we've never met about a thing that theoretically happened decades ago and also presumably happened to hundreds or thousands of other people? It just doesn't make any sense.
      - soulofmischief 1y ago
        I'm not asking for your apology, or even your response. You could have kept reading on to other comments, ignoring those which were not meant for someone like you. I am allowed to add to a discussion, I am sorry that it did not meet your standards.
  - bravoetch 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    Tone over the Internet is read by the reader overlaying their psychological convolution function on the text being consumed.
    - soulofmischief 1y ago
      Surely you aren't claiming that intonation and general tone cannot be established or suggested in a well-written text. There are centuries of literature and academic courses proving otherwise.
      - mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Well written? Sure; that’s less likely in comment boxes though.
  - tomhow 1y ago
    Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bitzun 1y ago
  My enjoyment of things is somewhat diminished by knowing that the thing engages in a vast conspiracy to commit and conceal abuse worldwide.
  - aipatselarom 1y ago
    My faith in Christ is way stronger than the influence of a small group of crooked and virtueless human beings. Even if 9 out of 10 of cardinals, priests and worshippers were crooked, my faith in Christ wouldn't move one inch (2.54cm); it might actually become even greater. I think there is a profound difference on how two different kinds of people approach religion. On one side, I've never given much care to what the "social opinion" of something is in order to engage with it or not. My choice to follow Christ is rooted on myself, not on what I'm told to be right or wrong. On the other, I can understand people who choose to associate/dissociate from specific groups/trends based on what they hear on the news/radio/etc... and I think that's completely valid as well. There was a even time in our past where having this trait was a desirable thing!
    - soulofmischief 1y ago
      On what do you base your faith? Did he send you an email?
      - aipatselarom 1y ago
        Try harder next time. You just blew up all the case you made around "I'm just here arguing in good faith". But to cater to your question, no, he did not send me an email. He did not have to do anything, I was the one who approached God. I hope one day you are able to understand this and live in peace with others who do not wish you any bad. You're not a teenager anymore.
        soulofmischief 1y ago
        There is no hypocrisy here. I am in good faith asking what proof you have to justify this unshakeable faith you're proudly declaring. > You're not a teenager anymore. Nor are you, I'm assuming, so please answer my question. > I hope one day you are able to understand this and live in peace with others who do not wish you any bad. You should not become so defensive when pressed for proof of claims you make about invisible patriarchs living in the sky and turning cities into salt because people had too much anal sex.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  [flagged]
- chambers 1y ago
  I was also raised by a loving catholic mother, who let me go my way, out of the church. I eventually found my way back in, and feel similar to you as you do now. IMHO, the GP has a right to share his experience here as we do ours. A thread on the election of a pope, with a subthread on the beauty of church, is a fair venue for sharing. There's no need for prejudice, disguised as policing, on either side.
  - moralestapia 1y ago
    Absolutely, there is nothing wrong with letting others know the other side of the coin. Moreover, I have done that respectfully, I never diminished the other guys' experience or called him fake or anything. He's mocking me in another comment already ... the tolerant ones. This is a thread about the Pope, why wouldn't people be allowed to say good things about the religion it leads? But guess what, some invisible hand hid my comments, even though the one where I expressed my opinion has more upvotes than downvotes and is not even flagged (cc @dang, perhaps you know what happened?). Is it breaking a policy? How is it different from the comment from @soulofmischief? Very tricky situation to be in, I can understand why someone would prefer to just hide it all. I'm honestly tired of all this "I'm catholic and I am involved in the church" being enough to warrant attacks from random strangers. Good news is the pendulum is swinging back, and it's swinging back hard! Deus vult! :D
    - soulofmischief 1y ago
      > He's mocking me in another comment already ... the tolerant ones No one is mocking you. You appear to have some sort of persecution complex, and are using it to shield you from having to earnestly engage with my replies. You're literally suggesting there is some kind of conspiracy to be unfair against you. I have not downvoted or flagged any of your comments. Perhaps you should consider the wisdom of the crowd and open yourself to criticism. > I'm honestly tired of all this "I'm catholic and I am involved in the church" being enough to warrant attacks from random strangers. You didn't have to reply to my comment with an ignorant, invalidating, dismissive and patronizing take. That was your choice, and the consequence is that people might reply to you in order to point out faults in your attitude and message. Just because you thought you were well-meaning doesn't mean you were. Your sour approach to discourse has made itself apparent in this thread. Many perpetrators of the Crusades also thought they were doing a good deed.
bigstrat2003 1y ago
That's true of literally everything though. No matter the environment you were raised in, having abusive parents will cause instinctive emotional repulsion to the things they filled their life with.
- soulofmischief 1y ago
  The reason I bring it up is because of the deep relationship between aesthetics and institutional control. At one time these aesthetics were meant to enforce a classist, autocratic governance rooted in deception, oppression and information asymmetry. The designs look nice, gold looks nice, the pope has some nice swag, but it's all a symbol of power. It's easy to forget that when you're lost in the sauce. SS uniforms looked slick as hell as far as uniforms go, but I wouldn't debate with a Holocaust survivor about why they should see the good in Nazis. The other people in this thread seem to have forgotten about the Crusades.
laughingcurve 1y ago
Very good point, and I agree completely. My source: Warhammer 40,000

moralestapia 1y ago

When you're embraced by its grace, all of the aesthetic takes on a very bright and uplifting inspirational tone and becomes symbolic of a lifetime of guidance and empowerment. Source: raised by an extremely loving Catholic mother.

StefanBatory 1y ago
[flagged]
- nessbot 1y ago
  No fan of the RC church here but I didn't hear any mocking. Just pointing out a counterfactual experience.
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    No one would have this loaded tone when counteracting someone's trauma in ANY subject - besides that of religion. It is a subject with a uniquely deep entrenchment of someone's fundamental life experiences and beliefs, and is the only subject where someone would have the gall to do such a thing; out of defense of, what they believe, is their very essence as a person. There is absolutely no shot that someone would respond to someone sexually abused by their parents with, "On the other hand, I have a loving spouse that makes that same action a very loving and peaceful experience!" It's brazenly distasteful.
    - khazhoux 1y ago
      There was no mention of sexual abuse.
      - HaZeust 1y ago
        We call those "analogies", my friend. When someone shares that their time in the Church was marked by coercion and abuse, responding with “well, my experience was uplifting” can feel dismissive of their trauma. It’s similar to hearing a survivor of sexual assault and replying, “my sexual experiences have all been wonderful.” Both experiences can coexist as true, but leading with your positive story in that moment risks minimizing the other person’s pain. It's distasteful, and is not conducive to a productive dialogue.
        moralestapia 1y ago
        [flagged]
        soulofmischief 1y ago
        > Productive dialogue can only arise when all points of view are fairly considered You have good intent, but I disagree and believe that "fair for all" does not mean "every viewpoint deserves the same consideration". Specifically, I have spent my entire life encountering Christians who try to tell me I've just had a bad experience and that things are great on their side of the pond, if I'd take a look. But I've read the Bible front to back, I was at the top of every class in my religious studies, I engaged critically with theology during my exposure to it. And my holistic experience revealed the deep hypocrisies, conspiracies and power structures inescapably tied to the Church's past and present. The Catholic Church, and all Judeo-Christian denominations in general, are simply a vehicle for power and control. It treats its followers well, but those who don't fall in line are often subject to very dark corners upheld by violence. The truth is that while you think your perspective is more considerate than mine, it's actually more ignorant. I have seen the things you've seen in the faith, but you haven't seen what I have seen. You have an incomplete picture about the realities of the Church. And yes, it does get tiring and eventually a part of the overall trauma to have well-meaning people completely disregard the truths I share with them and tell me I don't know the Church for what it really is, retreating to their own limited experiences without considering the implications of mine. And while it wasn't your intent, as a group behavior it becomes patronizing. I'm glad you had a good Catholic mother. I had abusive, often homeless drug addicts for parents and was left in the care of a very evil man who used to do horrible things to me in the name of your god, and who was directly empowered and blessed by the Catholic Church to carry out his sick abuse. P.S. > who may be willing to improve their dialectic skills this is also patronizing and snarky especially after beginning your post with "Lv. 0 attack dismissed." That is not what I would call dialectically skillful or considerate. We should always strive to engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
  - pc86 1y ago
    Honestly not even sure it's meant to be a counterfactual experience, just more pointing out that the original comment isn't really germane. "The aesthetics of $THING are really very impressive whether you believe the underlying mythology or not." "Yeah well I had a bad experience with $THING so I don't get any joy out of it all because it's dark and sinister!" ...ok? What's the response to something like that supposed to be? Is this Reddit where we should fall over each other to apologize to someone we've never met about a thing that theoretically happened decades ago and also presumably happened to hundreds or thousands of other people? It just doesn't make any sense.
    - soulofmischief 1y ago
      I'm not asking for your apology, or even your response. You could have kept reading on to other comments, ignoring those which were not meant for someone like you. I am allowed to add to a discussion, I am sorry that it did not meet your standards.
- bravoetch 1y ago
  [flagged]
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Tone over the Internet is read by the reader overlaying their psychological convolution function on the text being consumed.
  - soulofmischief 1y ago
    Surely you aren't claiming that intonation and general tone cannot be established or suggested in a well-written text. There are centuries of literature and academic courses proving otherwise.
    - mensetmanusman 1y ago
      Well written? Sure; that’s less likely in comment boxes though.
- tomhow 1y ago
  Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
bitzun 1y ago
My enjoyment of things is somewhat diminished by knowing that the thing engages in a vast conspiracy to commit and conceal abuse worldwide.
- aipatselarom 1y ago
  My faith in Christ is way stronger than the influence of a small group of crooked and virtueless human beings. Even if 9 out of 10 of cardinals, priests and worshippers were crooked, my faith in Christ wouldn't move one inch (2.54cm); it might actually become even greater. I think there is a profound difference on how two different kinds of people approach religion. On one side, I've never given much care to what the "social opinion" of something is in order to engage with it or not. My choice to follow Christ is rooted on myself, not on what I'm told to be right or wrong. On the other, I can understand people who choose to associate/dissociate from specific groups/trends based on what they hear on the news/radio/etc... and I think that's completely valid as well. There was a even time in our past where having this trait was a desirable thing!
  - soulofmischief 1y ago
    On what do you base your faith? Did he send you an email?
    - aipatselarom 1y ago
      Try harder next time. You just blew up all the case you made around "I'm just here arguing in good faith". But to cater to your question, no, he did not send me an email. He did not have to do anything, I was the one who approached God. I hope one day you are able to understand this and live in peace with others who do not wish you any bad. You're not a teenager anymore.
      - soulofmischief 1y ago
        There is no hypocrisy here. I am in good faith asking what proof you have to justify this unshakeable faith you're proudly declaring. > You're not a teenager anymore. Nor are you, I'm assuming, so please answer my question. > I hope one day you are able to understand this and live in peace with others who do not wish you any bad. You should not become so defensive when pressed for proof of claims you make about invisible patriarchs living in the sky and turning cities into salt because people had too much anal sex.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
[flagged]
chambers 1y ago
I was also raised by a loving catholic mother, who let me go my way, out of the church. I eventually found my way back in, and feel similar to you as you do now. IMHO, the GP has a right to share his experience here as we do ours. A thread on the election of a pope, with a subthread on the beauty of church, is a fair venue for sharing. There's no need for prejudice, disguised as policing, on either side.
- moralestapia 1y ago
  Absolutely, there is nothing wrong with letting others know the other side of the coin. Moreover, I have done that respectfully, I never diminished the other guys' experience or called him fake or anything. He's mocking me in another comment already ... the tolerant ones. This is a thread about the Pope, why wouldn't people be allowed to say good things about the religion it leads? But guess what, some invisible hand hid my comments, even though the one where I expressed my opinion has more upvotes than downvotes and is not even flagged (cc @dang, perhaps you know what happened?). Is it breaking a policy? How is it different from the comment from @soulofmischief? Very tricky situation to be in, I can understand why someone would prefer to just hide it all. I'm honestly tired of all this "I'm catholic and I am involved in the church" being enough to warrant attacks from random strangers. Good news is the pendulum is swinging back, and it's swinging back hard! Deus vult! :D
  - soulofmischief 1y ago
    > He's mocking me in another comment already ... the tolerant ones No one is mocking you. You appear to have some sort of persecution complex, and are using it to shield you from having to earnestly engage with my replies. You're literally suggesting there is some kind of conspiracy to be unfair against you. I have not downvoted or flagged any of your comments. Perhaps you should consider the wisdom of the crowd and open yourself to criticism. > I'm honestly tired of all this "I'm catholic and I am involved in the church" being enough to warrant attacks from random strangers. You didn't have to reply to my comment with an ignorant, invalidating, dismissive and patronizing take. That was your choice, and the consequence is that people might reply to you in order to point out faults in your attitude and message. Just because you thought you were well-meaning doesn't mean you were. Your sour approach to discourse has made itself apparent in this thread. Many perpetrators of the Crusades also thought they were doing a good deed.

bigstrat2003 1y ago

That's true of literally everything though. No matter the environment you were raised in, having abusive parents will cause instinctive emotional repulsion to the things they filled their life with.

soulofmischief 1y ago
The reason I bring it up is because of the deep relationship between aesthetics and institutional control. At one time these aesthetics were meant to enforce a classist, autocratic governance rooted in deception, oppression and information asymmetry. The designs look nice, gold looks nice, the pope has some nice swag, but it's all a symbol of power. It's easy to forget that when you're lost in the sauce. SS uniforms looked slick as hell as far as uniforms go, but I wouldn't debate with a Holocaust survivor about why they should see the good in Nazis. The other people in this thread seem to have forgotten about the Crusades.

laughingcurve 1y ago

Very good point, and I agree completely. My source: Warhammer 40,000