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I won't defend these tariffs, or their rollout. But I will say that our dependence on Chinese manufacturing (and engineering, these days) is not good for our na

I won't defend these tariffs, or their rollout. But I will say that our dependence on Chinese manufacturing (and engineering, these days) is not good for our nation. Free trade combined with cheap labor led to a massive loss of national capability. We outsourced 75% of the supply chain for electronics, and provided decades of free training to foreign companies. Then we pulled a surprised mug when those same companies decided that they don't need us any more. As a parent of young kids, I'm also keenly aware of how much random plastic garbage we import - just to throw it away after maybe one use. Party favors are a big one. Families are drowning in low-cost, low-quality products that wind up in a landfill. Free trade created this situation, and I don't think it's good for anybody except importers and factory owners. I don't know what the solution is, and the current tariffs clearly aren't it. But free trade with China hasn't exactly been great for the US in a longterm sense, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise just because we're getting cheap consumer goods.

lowbloodsugar 1y ago
Sure. But this is not the way to do it. In fact if I were to think of a way to destroy the USA, this plan of Trumps would be it.
- dylan604 1y ago
  especially with the recent military changes. everything I'm seeing just reeks of foreign operatives initiating plans that benefit the foreign government.
PaulKeeble 1y ago
Had tariffs been applied early when American corporations stated offshoring manufacturing to increase their profits the industry base might have been saved. But now these tariffs are just going to introduce pain to people in substantial price hikes and no company in this chaotic environment is going to put the collective trillions of dollars to building capability back in the USA. This requires a better plan.
- hollerith 1y ago
  I wonder whether you realize that the US is currently second in manufacturing capacity and far ahead of the country (Japan) in third place. (I'm not defending Trump's tariffs.) The situation in electronics manufacturing specifically I will concede is concerning.
  - beAbU 1y ago
    Is that a per capita metric, or overall? America is fuckin huge.
    - hollerith 1y ago
      Overall. Energy costs (particularly natural gas prices) are much lower in the US than in the other manufacturing powerhouses, and some manufacturing is very energy-intensive.
- CGMthrowaway 1y ago
  That's a goofy argument because manufacturing did not start to be offshored until AFTER tariffs were removed. Chart: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Average_Tariff_Rates_in_USA_%281821-2016%29.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Average_...
  - lesuorac 1y ago
    Eh, doesn't that chart support their argument? Domestic manufacturing decreasing as tariffs decrease implies that increasing tariffs would increase domestic manufacturing. With their argument being that you needed to do it 50 years ago when the shift started because if you do it now it's really painful.
    - philistine 1y ago
      > if you do it now it's really painful. That's a misnomer if ever there was one. The current batch of tariffs will destroy enough American wealth to nosedive the economy before any long-term change. Manufacturing is not coming back, there's just not gonna be enough wealth in the US to warrant it. Plus there are counter-tariffs, so if you make it in America, you can't reliably export it.
CGMthrowaway 1y ago
>I won't defend these tariffs, or their rollout. But I will say that our dependence on Chinese manufacturing (and engineering, these days) is not good for our nation. How would you solve it differently?
- dylan604 1y ago
  With what we know now, or going back in time and making different decisions than what were made? offshoring isn't necessarily the wrong decision, but sending it all to one country with hostile form of government to your own does seem like a bad move. China just happened to be smart enough to develop in this way where Mexico or other Latin American countries did not, nor did other Asian countries. They are all now trying to play catch up, but only after China became THE place for all of this manufacturing. There is no overnight solve at this point. But a solution would be working to help countries with more friendly government to your own to build up their manufacturing with the promise of guaranteed business to help prop it up by moving away from the hostile government.
  - worik 1y ago
    > But a solution would be working to help countries with more friendly government to your own In other countries we are scared of, not friendly too, the USA
- scoofy 1y ago
  Not OP, but it's clear that slow, low, scheduled tariffs are how you move manufacturing. When a business say, hmm... in 5 years, we're going to be unprofitable, we should probably invest in an American fab. This is also why you pass the tariffs through the legislature and not via some literal "emergency" order, which means that the tariffs could disappear at literally any point, and probably will if things get bad. So what's the point of investment if you have a better than 50-50 chance and you're going to feel the pain either way? It's just exactly the opposite way anyone who is seriously trying to shift manufacturing would go about doing it. There is also some strong dollar issues, but that's really complicated.
- gosub100 1y ago
soared 1y ago
> Then we pulled a surprised mug when those same companies decided that they don't need us any more. What does this mean?
- mtlynch 1y ago
  mug = face The clearer wording is probably: >Then we were surprised when those same companies decided that they don't need us any more.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> our dependence on Chinese manufacturing (and engineering, these days) is not good for our nation If we only tariffed China, this argument would hold water. Instead, we’re handing every country’s imports to China on a platter.
mvdtnz 1y ago
> Families are drowning in low-cost, low-quality products that wind up in a landfill. Free trade created this situation, and I don't think it's good for anybody except importers and factory owners. No, free trade did not create this situation. People like you did. I'm not over here drowning in useless plastic and we've lived in the same globalised world together.
6stringmerc 1y ago
The bulk of US wealth and economic strength is is high value, highly profitable services. I worked in sales support for Engineering and a 60% profit on labor was the norm. There’s a tremendous gap in low value services (restaurants) which distort the efficiency of the US economy as best reflected in a lack of social safety nets on morality grounds rather than economics. COVID stimulus proved that the nation would not collapse if the most vulnerable were subsidized, and it’s against the political machine’s interests to confront this reality.
- alephnan 1y ago
  > COVID stimulus proved that the nation would not collapse if the most vulnerable were subsidized The resulting inflation has lowered the purchasing power of the vulnerable and increased the wealth gap.
onesociety2022 1y ago
If your goal is to prevent cheap throw-away items from ending up in landfills, there's a straight-forward policy the Govt could adopt - just make it very expensive to send stuff to landfills (and stop the practice of sending our garbage to poor countries where it just ends polluting rivers and oceans). This would encourage people to buy only high-quality items that are longer-lasting and are not just discarded very quickly. If it costs $200 to discard your dishwasher, maybe you will buy a high-quality product that might have a higher sticker price upfront but it has better reliability and won't break down quickly requiring you to replace it and therefore pay the hefty landfill price. This in turn would encourage manufacturers to build products with better reliability.
- hattmall 1y ago
  But how do you even know if it's actually higher quality. I find that expensive stuff breaks just as readily as cheap stuff in many cases. Speaking to dishwashers specifically in my rentals I've found that pretty much they all have similar flaws. The $1500 Bosch doesn't last longer or clean better than the $300 Frigidaire. What I've learned is that the best is to get the cheapest, but popular model with the decibel rating you want. Samsung Stormwash has been the best for me because the replacement parts are readily available. The cheaper models they keep changing parts every 6 months so it's more difficult to replace them.
  - onesociety2022 1y ago
    You would find them the same way you find any good products today (word of mouth, product reviews, etc). But currently consumers don’t care so much about the longevity of any product or its repairability because throwing it away and getting a new one is the more economical choice. Manufacturers instead focus on gimmicky or useless features while not focusing on reliability. If disposing an item to a landfill is made to be expensive, then consumers will start making different choices and manufacturers will change their products to meet their needs.
  - BlueTemplar 1y ago
    Does it have more than the minimal legal manufacturer warranty ? As you mention, how long are the repair parts available ? What do repair shops say about the repairability of the model ? Where is it made ?
EasyMark 1y ago
We all know this, and most people I know are all for onshoring more stuff back here as well as with friendly nations around the world. What Trump is doing is insanity, zero business acumen, zero chances of success. To bring some (certainly will never be all) manufacturing back, we could have real business incentives, ending h1b visa program, tax relief for industries that "disappeared", target tariffs and trade agreements. Instead we get some kind of shitty AI math conjured up by DOGE boys that claims "trade deficits" are the same thing as "tariffs" and whispering it into Trump's ear.

lowbloodsugar 1y ago

Sure. But this is not the way to do it. In fact if I were to think of a way to destroy the USA, this plan of Trumps would be it.

dylan604 1y ago
especially with the recent military changes. everything I'm seeing just reeks of foreign operatives initiating plans that benefit the foreign government.

PaulKeeble 1y ago

Had tariffs been applied early when American corporations stated offshoring manufacturing to increase their profits the industry base might have been saved. But now these tariffs are just going to introduce pain to people in substantial price hikes and no company in this chaotic environment is going to put the collective trillions of dollars to building capability back in the USA. This requires a better plan.

hollerith 1y ago
I wonder whether you realize that the US is currently second in manufacturing capacity and far ahead of the country (Japan) in third place. (I'm not defending Trump's tariffs.) The situation in electronics manufacturing specifically I will concede is concerning.
- beAbU 1y ago
  Is that a per capita metric, or overall? America is fuckin huge.
  - hollerith 1y ago
    Overall. Energy costs (particularly natural gas prices) are much lower in the US than in the other manufacturing powerhouses, and some manufacturing is very energy-intensive.
CGMthrowaway 1y ago
That's a goofy argument because manufacturing did not start to be offshored until AFTER tariffs were removed. Chart: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Average_Tariff_Rates_in_USA_%281821-2016%29.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Average_...
- lesuorac 1y ago
  Eh, doesn't that chart support their argument? Domestic manufacturing decreasing as tariffs decrease implies that increasing tariffs would increase domestic manufacturing. With their argument being that you needed to do it 50 years ago when the shift started because if you do it now it's really painful.
  - philistine 1y ago
    > if you do it now it's really painful. That's a misnomer if ever there was one. The current batch of tariffs will destroy enough American wealth to nosedive the economy before any long-term change. Manufacturing is not coming back, there's just not gonna be enough wealth in the US to warrant it. Plus there are counter-tariffs, so if you make it in America, you can't reliably export it.

CGMthrowaway 1y ago

>I won't defend these tariffs, or their rollout. But I will say that our dependence on Chinese manufacturing (and engineering, these days) is not good for our nation. How would you solve it differently?

dylan604 1y ago
With what we know now, or going back in time and making different decisions than what were made? offshoring isn't necessarily the wrong decision, but sending it all to one country with hostile form of government to your own does seem like a bad move. China just happened to be smart enough to develop in this way where Mexico or other Latin American countries did not, nor did other Asian countries. They are all now trying to play catch up, but only after China became THE place for all of this manufacturing. There is no overnight solve at this point. But a solution would be working to help countries with more friendly government to your own to build up their manufacturing with the promise of guaranteed business to help prop it up by moving away from the hostile government.
- worik 1y ago
  > But a solution would be working to help countries with more friendly government to your own In other countries we are scared of, not friendly too, the USA
scoofy 1y ago
Not OP, but it's clear that slow, low, scheduled tariffs are how you move manufacturing. When a business say, hmm... in 5 years, we're going to be unprofitable, we should probably invest in an American fab. This is also why you pass the tariffs through the legislature and not via some literal "emergency" order, which means that the tariffs could disappear at literally any point, and probably will if things get bad. So what's the point of investment if you have a better than 50-50 chance and you're going to feel the pain either way? It's just exactly the opposite way anyone who is seriously trying to shift manufacturing would go about doing it. There is also some strong dollar issues, but that's really complicated.
gosub100 1y ago

soared 1y ago

> Then we pulled a surprised mug when those same companies decided that they don't need us any more. What does this mean?

mtlynch 1y ago
mug = face The clearer wording is probably: >Then we were surprised when those same companies decided that they don't need us any more.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> our dependence on Chinese manufacturing (and engineering, these days) is not good for our nation If we only tariffed China, this argument would hold water. Instead, we’re handing every country’s imports to China on a platter.

mvdtnz 1y ago

> Families are drowning in low-cost, low-quality products that wind up in a landfill. Free trade created this situation, and I don't think it's good for anybody except importers and factory owners. No, free trade did not create this situation. People like you did. I'm not over here drowning in useless plastic and we've lived in the same globalised world together.

6stringmerc 1y ago

The bulk of US wealth and economic strength is is high value, highly profitable services. I worked in sales support for Engineering and a 60% profit on labor was the norm. There’s a tremendous gap in low value services (restaurants) which distort the efficiency of the US economy as best reflected in a lack of social safety nets on morality grounds rather than economics. COVID stimulus proved that the nation would not collapse if the most vulnerable were subsidized, and it’s against the political machine’s interests to confront this reality.

alephnan 1y ago
> COVID stimulus proved that the nation would not collapse if the most vulnerable were subsidized The resulting inflation has lowered the purchasing power of the vulnerable and increased the wealth gap.

onesociety2022 1y ago

If your goal is to prevent cheap throw-away items from ending up in landfills, there's a straight-forward policy the Govt could adopt - just make it very expensive to send stuff to landfills (and stop the practice of sending our garbage to poor countries where it just ends polluting rivers and oceans). This would encourage people to buy only high-quality items that are longer-lasting and are not just discarded very quickly. If it costs $200 to discard your dishwasher, maybe you will buy a high-quality product that might have a higher sticker price upfront but it has better reliability and won't break down quickly requiring you to replace it and therefore pay the hefty landfill price. This in turn would encourage manufacturers to build products with better reliability.

hattmall 1y ago
But how do you even know if it's actually higher quality. I find that expensive stuff breaks just as readily as cheap stuff in many cases. Speaking to dishwashers specifically in my rentals I've found that pretty much they all have similar flaws. The $1500 Bosch doesn't last longer or clean better than the $300 Frigidaire. What I've learned is that the best is to get the cheapest, but popular model with the decibel rating you want. Samsung Stormwash has been the best for me because the replacement parts are readily available. The cheaper models they keep changing parts every 6 months so it's more difficult to replace them.
- onesociety2022 1y ago
  You would find them the same way you find any good products today (word of mouth, product reviews, etc). But currently consumers don’t care so much about the longevity of any product or its repairability because throwing it away and getting a new one is the more economical choice. Manufacturers instead focus on gimmicky or useless features while not focusing on reliability. If disposing an item to a landfill is made to be expensive, then consumers will start making different choices and manufacturers will change their products to meet their needs.
- BlueTemplar 1y ago
  Does it have more than the minimal legal manufacturer warranty ? As you mention, how long are the repair parts available ? What do repair shops say about the repairability of the model ? Where is it made ?

EasyMark 1y ago

We all know this, and most people I know are all for onshoring more stuff back here as well as with friendly nations around the world. What Trump is doing is insanity, zero business acumen, zero chances of success. To bring some (certainly will never be all) manufacturing back, we could have real business incentives, ending h1b visa program, tax relief for industries that "disappeared", target tariffs and trade agreements. Instead we get some kind of shitty AI math conjured up by DOGE boys that claims "trade deficits" are the same thing as "tariffs" and whispering it into Trump's ear.