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Egypt was subjugated to the Ottoman Empire at the time. And even if they had some kind of king/dictator, it is certainly was a decision of a free people. What

Egypt was subjugated to the Ottoman Empire at the time. And even if they had some kind of king/dictator, it is certainly was a decision of a free people. What antique France monuments did France give away just like that for no reason? Do not take what should not have been offered.

nurettin 1y ago
So Palestinians should get their lands back?
rsynnott 1y ago
It was _essentially_ independent by then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt_under_the_Muhammad_Ali_dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt_under_the_Muh... It was in principle still part of the Ottoman Empire, but not really meaningfully under their control.
- amitport 1y ago
  the ruler was maybe somewhat independent, the nation was not. Romans also considered Herolds to be a just ruler of an "free" Judea as far as they are conceres. That's how often subjugation works.
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    It was kind of the opposite, AIUI; the Ottomans claimed that Muhammad Ali was just a regional governor, but the country was de facto independent; the Ottomans had no ability to control it.
    - amitport 1y ago
      How do you know? It was not free. The people certainly were not free.
      - rsynnott 1y ago
        > The people certainly were not free. Oh, no, definitely not. I mean, it was the early 19th century; not _literally having slaves_ was considered a dangerously radical experiment that even revolutionary France could only half-commit to. Freedom wasn't a big thing in the early 19th century. But Egypt under Muhammad Ali was about as independent as any country was at the time, really. It controlled its own domestic and foreign policy, had its own military, and _invaded its nominal suzerain_, taking Syria off the Ottomans.
autoexec 1y ago
> What antique France monuments did France give away just like that for no reason? It may stretch the definition of "antique" but does the Statue of Liberty count? Nations give other nations things all the time, and when power changes hands that doesn't negate those gifts of the spirit in which they were offered.
- amitport 1y ago
  Ottoman did not make the gift they gave to France. A democracy should not accept a tyrant giving a ancient gift from it "people"

nurettin 1y ago

So Palestinians should get their lands back?

rsynnott 1y ago

It was _essentially_ independent by then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt_under_the_Muhammad_Ali_dynasty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt_under_the_Muh... It was in principle still part of the Ottoman Empire, but not really meaningfully under their control.

amitport 1y ago
the ruler was maybe somewhat independent, the nation was not. Romans also considered Herolds to be a just ruler of an "free" Judea as far as they are conceres. That's how often subjugation works.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  It was kind of the opposite, AIUI; the Ottomans claimed that Muhammad Ali was just a regional governor, but the country was de facto independent; the Ottomans had no ability to control it.
  - amitport 1y ago
    How do you know? It was not free. The people certainly were not free.
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      > The people certainly were not free. Oh, no, definitely not. I mean, it was the early 19th century; not _literally having slaves_ was considered a dangerously radical experiment that even revolutionary France could only half-commit to. Freedom wasn't a big thing in the early 19th century. But Egypt under Muhammad Ali was about as independent as any country was at the time, really. It controlled its own domestic and foreign policy, had its own military, and _invaded its nominal suzerain_, taking Syria off the Ottomans.

autoexec 1y ago

> What antique France monuments did France give away just like that for no reason? It may stretch the definition of "antique" but does the Statue of Liberty count? Nations give other nations things all the time, and when power changes hands that doesn't negate those gifts of the spirit in which they were offered.

amitport 1y ago
Ottoman did not make the gift they gave to France. A democracy should not accept a tyrant giving a ancient gift from it "people"