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I think about this often. I hear people talking about why we need sunscreen these days and in my mind it's simply due to the lack of foliage and natural shade i

I think about this often. I hear people talking about why we need sunscreen these days and in my mind it's simply due to the lack of foliage and natural shade in both modern urban and rural areas (which are largely farm land these days)

infecto 1y ago
Wouldn’t the simpler explanation be that we are more aware of the risks to over exposure to the sun? We certainly can use more trees but most folks spend most of their time indoors for work.
- wodenokoto 1y ago
  It is. Sunscreen recommendations usually also applies if you plan on staying in shade. UV (like visible light) reflects off of walls too.
  - roflmaostc 1y ago
    actually the reflectance of UV is usually much lower than visible light. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01315-1/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01315-1/figures/2
  - ricw 1y ago
    It’s actually much more that the ozone layer, which filters uv, is much thinner than it was even 60-70 years ago. The ozone layer might be growing again, but at a very slow pace. Simple fact is, we’re much more exposed to uv than prior generations.
    - dgacmu 1y ago
      "much" more might be overstating it? We get about 6% more UV: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100316142529.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100316142529.h... Which corresponds with the ozone layer being about 5% thinner: https://www.clo.nl/en/indicators/en021819-ozone-layer-1980-2022 https://www.clo.nl/en/indicators/en021819-ozone-layer-1980-2... Not good (or good for us) but also not a huge huge change, since we stopped the thinning of the ozone layer mostly in time.
- ekianjo 1y ago
  People are moke likely to cover themselves too much and refrain from going outside which in turns makes them vitamin D deficient which is way worse than potential UV induced cancer risks
  - andra_nl 1y ago
    Can you support this claim somehow? Because on the face of it this sounds dangerously wrong.
    - jodrellblank 1y ago
      This dietician blog on the British Heart Foundation website suggests it's wrong but partly right[0], saying "although having low levels of vitamin D is associated with increased risk of cardiovascular disease, the low vitamin D is a result of lifestyle factors that increase your risk of heart disease and stroke, rather than the cause of increased risk.". The leading causes of death in the UK[1] are heart disease, lung cancer, influenza, dementia, vascular disease (stroke?) and lower respiratory disease. Skin cancer is 1% of cancer deaths, and for melanoma the peak of diagnosis is people 85-89 years old[2]. Considering average life expectancy, people are generally diagnosed with skin cancer a few years after they die. The partial claim "refrain from going outside which in turn .. is way worse than potential UV induced cancer risks" could be right. Avoiding exercise and increasing your heart disease risk, in the hope that you'll avoid one of the more treatable and less fatal cancers in very late life, is probably the wrong tradeoff. Not to do with Vitamin D or covering up or suncream though. Still, why not do both - cover up and go out, lower heart disease risk and lower your chances of skin cancer diagnosis in late life. [0] https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/ask-the-expert/vitamin-d https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-maga... [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/articles/leadingcausesofdeathuk/2001to2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... [2] https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/melanoma/background-information/prevalence/ https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/melanoma/background-informati...
    - ekianjo 1y ago
      How many people have you heard dying of skin cancer vs other cancers around you? High Vitamin D levels have shown over and over again to decrease the risk of serious cancers (the littérature is abundant). Melanoma causes 1.5 % of total cancers related deaths according to CDC so you are much more likely to die from all the other types of cancer. https://gis.cdc.gov/Cancer/USCS/#/Trends/ https://gis.cdc.gov/Cancer/USCS/#/Trends/
- ghaff 1y ago
  In general, perhaps especially in the US, a lot of people are more inclined to mitigate all kinds of risks today than they were a few decades ago. See also seat belts, helmets, etc. Per another comment though I don't see any evidence that extends to not even going outside and, while my dermatologist is 100% on-board with sunscreen and hats, she's never even hinted that I might spend less time outside,
  - bluGill 1y ago
    No doctor tells you to never go outside in normal situations. If there are high pollution or severe weather events they will tell you stay inside for the duration. I'm sure there are others, but they are not common so it doesn't matter that I can't think of them. However many people only go outside in the context of walking from their car to the door of wherever they are going, and some who work from home can go for weeks without going outside at all. This is a bad thing, you need exercise (though it could be inside), but realistically many people are not getting enough.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      Certainly, and especially outside of an urban environment, walking any real amount takes a degree of intentionality that is easy to put off.
- wongarsu 1y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "these days". If you ask "why do white people need sunscreen" a large part of the reason is that we evolved this skin tone in a Europe that was completely covered in forest until agriculture became widespread. If you ask "why do people wear more sunscreen than in the 50s" the answer is risk awareness. And especially in the last 10 years a much bigger awareness of the effects of skin aging.
  - sorenjan 1y ago
    Europeans developed light skin after the agriculturar revolution, not before. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2467926-most-europeans-may-have-had-dark-skin-until-less-than-3000-years-ago/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2467926-most-europeans-... https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.29.635495v2.full https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.29.635495v2....
    - WaitWaitWha 1y ago
      No. "The peoples of Europe are fair-skinned and reddish, because they live in a cold climate and are not scorched by the sun." Source: Hippocrates, On Airs, Waters, and Places, 5th century BC. "The physical characteristics of the Germans are consistent: blue eyes, reddish hair, and large bodies." (Tacitus, Germania, chapter 4) Egyptian tomb paintings from the New Kingdom (c. 1550–1070 BC) visually represent foreign peoples with distinct skin tones - "Europeans", in the form of Sea Peoples or early Aegean peoples (e.g., Minoans or Mycenaeans), were sometimes shown with light red or pale skin tones.
      - fwip 1y ago
        The agricultural revolution was roughly 10,000 BC, wasn't it? Your sources are more recent than that, and so don't disagree with the point the parent post was making.
        WaitWaitWha 1y ago
        Yes, there was an agricultural revolution during the neolithic times. We have evidence this for the Southwest Asia aka Middle East, Asia around the Yangtze and Yellow rivers, South, Central and North Americas. I am open to this hypothesis (conjecture?), it just lacks supportive evidence. On the other hand, we have ample evidence that agricultural revolution did not "turn people white" in the other regions.
stefs 1y ago
imo: people used to be outside a lot more. by summer they usually had a good tan, so they didn't suffer the sunlight that much. of course this did lead to _premature_ (from our modern point of view) skin aging. heat and light are different factors, even though they mostly come hand in hand. outside, heat is definitely a bigger problem than it used to be, but also we don't spend as much time outside. if heat became a problem people used to take time off, rest during the hottest times of the day and work earlier/later.
pjc50 1y ago
Also the 20th century abandonment of the hat. (remind me, what was the California "bus shelter" design that was basically an expensive stick and got widely ridiculed on here?)
- jollyllama 1y ago
  "La Sombrita"
- huhkerrf 1y ago
  It was called La Sombrita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Sombrita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Sombrita And, it's even worse than just not working. It's a shelter to provide shade _for women_ that provided almost none. Because apparently shade is now part of the gender wars.
  - fwip 1y ago
    As somebody who took daily bus trips for nearly a decade of my life, I would definitely prefer the meager shade from these to the bare bus stops they were replacing. Standing in the sun for even fifteen minutes waiting for a bus can be miserable. I'm not sure what your point about "gender wars" is. Is this pole too effeminate for a man to be shaded by?
    - RunningDroid 1y ago
      > I'm not sure what your point about "gender wars" is. Is this pole too effeminate for a man to be shaded by? They were referring to this: >Its purpose was to assist female bus riders by offering shade during the hottest hours of the day and providing sidewalk lighting at night.
      - fwip 1y ago
        Right - a study found that the majority of bus riders were women, but previous designers were mostly men. So they surveyed them, found out that one of their top priorities was shade, and designed a relatively inexpensive way to provide it. No gender war, just serving your customers.
npteljes 1y ago
>why we need sunscreen these days It's not about foliage, it's because we like to look as young as possible - or put another way, as undamaged as possible. Sunscreen adds to that a lot, because it mitigates sun damage. At a given age, people used to look much older than we do now, and that is partly because of less sun exposure.

infecto 1y ago

Wouldn’t the simpler explanation be that we are more aware of the risks to over exposure to the sun? We certainly can use more trees but most folks spend most of their time indoors for work.

wodenokoto 1y ago
It is. Sunscreen recommendations usually also applies if you plan on staying in shade. UV (like visible light) reflects off of walls too.
- roflmaostc 1y ago
  actually the reflectance of UV is usually much lower than visible light. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01315-1/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01315-1/figures/2
- ricw 1y ago
  It’s actually much more that the ozone layer, which filters uv, is much thinner than it was even 60-70 years ago. The ozone layer might be growing again, but at a very slow pace. Simple fact is, we’re much more exposed to uv than prior generations.
  - dgacmu 1y ago
    "much" more might be overstating it? We get about 6% more UV: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100316142529.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100316142529.h... Which corresponds with the ozone layer being about 5% thinner: https://www.clo.nl/en/indicators/en021819-ozone-layer-1980-2022 https://www.clo.nl/en/indicators/en021819-ozone-layer-1980-2... Not good (or good for us) but also not a huge huge change, since we stopped the thinning of the ozone layer mostly in time.
ekianjo 1y ago
People are moke likely to cover themselves too much and refrain from going outside which in turns makes them vitamin D deficient which is way worse than potential UV induced cancer risks
- andra_nl 1y ago
  Can you support this claim somehow? Because on the face of it this sounds dangerously wrong.
  - jodrellblank 1y ago
    This dietician blog on the British Heart Foundation website suggests it's wrong but partly right[0], saying "although having low levels of vitamin D is associated with increased risk of cardiovascular disease, the low vitamin D is a result of lifestyle factors that increase your risk of heart disease and stroke, rather than the cause of increased risk.". The leading causes of death in the UK[1] are heart disease, lung cancer, influenza, dementia, vascular disease (stroke?) and lower respiratory disease. Skin cancer is 1% of cancer deaths, and for melanoma the peak of diagnosis is people 85-89 years old[2]. Considering average life expectancy, people are generally diagnosed with skin cancer a few years after they die. The partial claim "refrain from going outside which in turn .. is way worse than potential UV induced cancer risks" could be right. Avoiding exercise and increasing your heart disease risk, in the hope that you'll avoid one of the more treatable and less fatal cancers in very late life, is probably the wrong tradeoff. Not to do with Vitamin D or covering up or suncream though. Still, why not do both - cover up and go out, lower heart disease risk and lower your chances of skin cancer diagnosis in late life. [0] https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/ask-the-expert/vitamin-d https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-maga... [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/articles/leadingcausesofdeathuk/2001to2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... [2] https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/melanoma/background-information/prevalence/ https://cks.nice.org.uk/topics/melanoma/background-informati...
  - ekianjo 1y ago
    How many people have you heard dying of skin cancer vs other cancers around you? High Vitamin D levels have shown over and over again to decrease the risk of serious cancers (the littérature is abundant). Melanoma causes 1.5 % of total cancers related deaths according to CDC so you are much more likely to die from all the other types of cancer. https://gis.cdc.gov/Cancer/USCS/#/Trends/ https://gis.cdc.gov/Cancer/USCS/#/Trends/
ghaff 1y ago
In general, perhaps especially in the US, a lot of people are more inclined to mitigate all kinds of risks today than they were a few decades ago. See also seat belts, helmets, etc. Per another comment though I don't see any evidence that extends to not even going outside and, while my dermatologist is 100% on-board with sunscreen and hats, she's never even hinted that I might spend less time outside,
- bluGill 1y ago
  No doctor tells you to never go outside in normal situations. If there are high pollution or severe weather events they will tell you stay inside for the duration. I'm sure there are others, but they are not common so it doesn't matter that I can't think of them. However many people only go outside in the context of walking from their car to the door of wherever they are going, and some who work from home can go for weeks without going outside at all. This is a bad thing, you need exercise (though it could be inside), but realistically many people are not getting enough.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    Certainly, and especially outside of an urban environment, walking any real amount takes a degree of intentionality that is easy to put off.
wongarsu 1y ago
Depends on what you mean by "these days". If you ask "why do white people need sunscreen" a large part of the reason is that we evolved this skin tone in a Europe that was completely covered in forest until agriculture became widespread. If you ask "why do people wear more sunscreen than in the 50s" the answer is risk awareness. And especially in the last 10 years a much bigger awareness of the effects of skin aging.
- sorenjan 1y ago
  Europeans developed light skin after the agriculturar revolution, not before. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2467926-most-europeans-may-have-had-dark-skin-until-less-than-3000-years-ago/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2467926-most-europeans-... https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.29.635495v2.full https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.01.29.635495v2....
  - WaitWaitWha 1y ago
    No. "The peoples of Europe are fair-skinned and reddish, because they live in a cold climate and are not scorched by the sun." Source: Hippocrates, On Airs, Waters, and Places, 5th century BC. "The physical characteristics of the Germans are consistent: blue eyes, reddish hair, and large bodies." (Tacitus, Germania, chapter 4) Egyptian tomb paintings from the New Kingdom (c. 1550–1070 BC) visually represent foreign peoples with distinct skin tones - "Europeans", in the form of Sea Peoples or early Aegean peoples (e.g., Minoans or Mycenaeans), were sometimes shown with light red or pale skin tones.
    - fwip 1y ago
      The agricultural revolution was roughly 10,000 BC, wasn't it? Your sources are more recent than that, and so don't disagree with the point the parent post was making.
      - WaitWaitWha 1y ago
        Yes, there was an agricultural revolution during the neolithic times. We have evidence this for the Southwest Asia aka Middle East, Asia around the Yangtze and Yellow rivers, South, Central and North Americas. I am open to this hypothesis (conjecture?), it just lacks supportive evidence. On the other hand, we have ample evidence that agricultural revolution did not "turn people white" in the other regions.

stefs 1y ago

imo: people used to be outside a lot more. by summer they usually had a good tan, so they didn't suffer the sunlight that much. of course this did lead to _premature_ (from our modern point of view) skin aging. heat and light are different factors, even though they mostly come hand in hand. outside, heat is definitely a bigger problem than it used to be, but also we don't spend as much time outside. if heat became a problem people used to take time off, rest during the hottest times of the day and work earlier/later.

pjc50 1y ago

Also the 20th century abandonment of the hat. (remind me, what was the California "bus shelter" design that was basically an expensive stick and got widely ridiculed on here?)

jollyllama 1y ago
"La Sombrita"
huhkerrf 1y ago
It was called La Sombrita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Sombrita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Sombrita And, it's even worse than just not working. It's a shelter to provide shade _for women_ that provided almost none. Because apparently shade is now part of the gender wars.
- fwip 1y ago
  As somebody who took daily bus trips for nearly a decade of my life, I would definitely prefer the meager shade from these to the bare bus stops they were replacing. Standing in the sun for even fifteen minutes waiting for a bus can be miserable. I'm not sure what your point about "gender wars" is. Is this pole too effeminate for a man to be shaded by?
  - RunningDroid 1y ago
    > I'm not sure what your point about "gender wars" is. Is this pole too effeminate for a man to be shaded by? They were referring to this: >Its purpose was to assist female bus riders by offering shade during the hottest hours of the day and providing sidewalk lighting at night.
    - fwip 1y ago
      Right - a study found that the majority of bus riders were women, but previous designers were mostly men. So they surveyed them, found out that one of their top priorities was shade, and designed a relatively inexpensive way to provide it. No gender war, just serving your customers.

npteljes 1y ago

>why we need sunscreen these days It's not about foliage, it's because we like to look as young as possible - or put another way, as undamaged as possible. Sunscreen adds to that a lot, because it mitigates sun damage. At a given age, people used to look much older than we do now, and that is partly because of less sun exposure.