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Stealing most crypto money is about the dumbest thing ever, because all transactions (for most such currencies) are open to the public to scrutinise and de-anon

by eru 2y ago

Stealing most crypto money is about the dumbest thing ever, because all transactions (for most such currencies) are open to the public to scrutinise and de-anonymous at their leisure. And the police is included in 'the public'.

arghwhat 2y ago
That has never stopped anyone, plenty of ways to launder money, quite a few of which are unique to crypto.
TheDong 2y ago
Even with a public ledger, it's harder to trace than, for example, forcing someone to wire the cash via the traditional banking system. With banking systems, each bank account has a unique address (private, but they'll cooperate with the government and police easily, and are experienced doing so), and that address is associated with a real person... and it operates slowly, which means the police can easily catch up to transactions. A transaction that crosses country boundaries has more scrutiny and takes longer, giving the police even more time and information. Crypto has public unique addresses (public keys), but there's no requirement any of them have names associated with them, and most don't. It operates more quickly than large bank wires, and easily crosses international borders. I'm not a fan of crypto, but even with public ledgers, it's less traceable and more anonymous than normal banks of most (all?) countries.
- arghwhat 2y ago
  The lack of borders makes it more traceable as you don't run your head against a different jurisdiction bring unwilling to provide data. There's a lot of creative criminals though, and a lot of questionable creative crypto solutions that cater far too well to them.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  One key component being alluded to here is that banks are legally required to know who you are (KYC). And there are consequences if they don’t. That alone makes a huge difference in everything having to do with the traditional banking system.
  - geoffmunn 2y ago
    That's only a post-9/11 requirement, so it's not really part of the 'traditional' banking system.
    - Kbelicius 2y ago
      Following your logic there never will be and there never was a traditional banking system because rules and regulation around banking keep getting changed.
- eru 2y ago
  > Even with a public ledger, it's harder to trace than, for example, forcing someone to wire the cash via the traditional banking system. Not really. From the comfort of my home, I as a member of the general public can trace any, say, bitcoin transaction I feel like, and work on de-anonymising it. And not only today's transactions, but all bitcoin transactions ever. To trace bank transfers, you need to be part of established law enforcement and have something like a warrant. (Or whatever the legal requirements are in your country.) The transfer might go via multiple countries with different rules and perhaps less enthusiastic authorities. And the data might get lost.
danaos 2y ago
They use bitcoin "mixers" and harder to trace coins like Monero/zcash etc.
elevaet 2y ago
If they don't cash out directly to an off-ramp there might not be a way to connect a crypto address to a person. If they use the crypto to buy illegal shit and sell that on the black market for cash - or sell the crypto directly on the black market for cash, they could evade detection. I wonder how much crypto is changing hands off-market in shadier corners.
- aorloff 2y ago
  There’s orders of magnitude more wash trading than off market wallet swaps
ramesh31 2y ago
>Stealing most crypto money is about the dumbest thing ever, because all transactions (for most such currencies) are open to the public to scrutinise and de-anonymous at their leisure. And the police is included in 'the public'. People keep saying this, and yet it keeps happening. You seem to have far more faith in the police than is warranted. Exactly how many investigations have ended in an arrest and recovery of funds from these actions? I'm guessing somewhere near zero for anything not directly involving government or corporate interests.
tim333 2y ago
N Korea seems to do ok with it.

by eru 2y ago

arghwhat 2y ago

That has never stopped anyone, plenty of ways to launder money, quite a few of which are unique to crypto.

TheDong 2y ago

Even with a public ledger, it's harder to trace than, for example, forcing someone to wire the cash via the traditional banking system. With banking systems, each bank account has a unique address (private, but they'll cooperate with the government and police easily, and are experienced doing so), and that address is associated with a real person... and it operates slowly, which means the police can easily catch up to transactions. A transaction that crosses country boundaries has more scrutiny and takes longer, giving the police even more time and information. Crypto has public unique addresses (public keys), but there's no requirement any of them have names associated with them, and most don't. It operates more quickly than large bank wires, and easily crosses international borders. I'm not a fan of crypto, but even with public ledgers, it's less traceable and more anonymous than normal banks of most (all?) countries.

arghwhat 2y ago
The lack of borders makes it more traceable as you don't run your head against a different jurisdiction bring unwilling to provide data. There's a lot of creative criminals though, and a lot of questionable creative crypto solutions that cater far too well to them.
SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
One key component being alluded to here is that banks are legally required to know who you are (KYC). And there are consequences if they don’t. That alone makes a huge difference in everything having to do with the traditional banking system.
- geoffmunn 2y ago
  That's only a post-9/11 requirement, so it's not really part of the 'traditional' banking system.
  - Kbelicius 2y ago
    Following your logic there never will be and there never was a traditional banking system because rules and regulation around banking keep getting changed.
eru 2y ago
> Even with a public ledger, it's harder to trace than, for example, forcing someone to wire the cash via the traditional banking system. Not really. From the comfort of my home, I as a member of the general public can trace any, say, bitcoin transaction I feel like, and work on de-anonymising it. And not only today's transactions, but all bitcoin transactions ever. To trace bank transfers, you need to be part of established law enforcement and have something like a warrant. (Or whatever the legal requirements are in your country.) The transfer might go via multiple countries with different rules and perhaps less enthusiastic authorities. And the data might get lost.

danaos 2y ago

They use bitcoin "mixers" and harder to trace coins like Monero/zcash etc.

elevaet 2y ago

If they don't cash out directly to an off-ramp there might not be a way to connect a crypto address to a person. If they use the crypto to buy illegal shit and sell that on the black market for cash - or sell the crypto directly on the black market for cash, they could evade detection. I wonder how much crypto is changing hands off-market in shadier corners.

aorloff 2y ago
There’s orders of magnitude more wash trading than off market wallet swaps

ramesh31 2y ago

>Stealing most crypto money is about the dumbest thing ever, because all transactions (for most such currencies) are open to the public to scrutinise and de-anonymous at their leisure. And the police is included in 'the public'. People keep saying this, and yet it keeps happening. You seem to have far more faith in the police than is warranted. Exactly how many investigations have ended in an arrest and recovery of funds from these actions? I'm guessing somewhere near zero for anything not directly involving government or corporate interests.

tim333 2y ago

N Korea seems to do ok with it.