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There are lots of speaker manufacturers; I'm not too concerned about Polk and B&W. But! There are relatively few home theater receiver makers, and the Denon/Ma

by dsr_ 1y ago

There are lots of speaker manufacturers; I'm not too concerned about Polk and B&W. But! There are relatively few home theater receiver makers, and the Denon/Marantz siblings have been a big chunk of them for decades. (Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon. Nobody else covers the low and mid cost market.)

neogodless 1y ago
I'm curious how large this market is. Speaking only anecdotally, when I was in my 20s, I bought a Sony "home theatre in a box" which included receiver, small subwoofer, and small satellite speakers. Over time, I upgraded to an Onkyo reciever and Polk center, surrounds, and subwoofer. But... then I decided I wanted a more minimal look, and switched to a JBL sound bar + subwoofer, which has detachable surrounds -- but I almost never utilize them. For sure, the sound is nothing compared to what I had before, but I'm mostly OK with it. All that to say, how popular are sound bars, and how popular are dedicated receivers?
- baq 1y ago
  Not very popular, but popular enough. If you care about sound more than looks (...and if you get the system set up and have a convincing story for your wife that it must be this way), it's the only way to experience movies 'properly'; mixed with an OLED TV, a proper subwoofer (like PB-1000 or similar) and bluray-quality content the system will be better than your average cinema experience. Now, whether that means anything when 99% of everything made for watching is just playing in the background while you're reading HN on your phone is debatable. Still wouldn't trade the setup even if I'm watching one movie per month. (I'm not even close to that high of a number...)
  - skydhash 1y ago
    There are some nice speakers that can fit nicely in a living room, but rears placement are always a problem. Especially if the sofa is isolated in the middle of the room. But my SO has enjoyed nice sounds so there was no struggle there (It was gradual with a 2.0 setup before the 5.1).
    - ryandrake 1y ago
      A lot of living rooms these days are terrible for surround sound, and sound listening in general. Big, “open concept” spaces without doors and walls, often with the “living room” area occupying an odd corner of the big open blah-space. No feasible way to correctly install and aim surrounds. Also sound insulation is generally quite poor unless you deliberately do it while building the house.
- mrweasel 1y ago
  Probably one issue could also be that a lot of this stuff is actually pretty well made, and repairable. My old NAD amplifier is more than 25 year old and doing great. I don't need a new one. I've switched speakers a few times, to better fit the rooms as we've moved, but the amplifier just sits in a corner with the CD player and turntable. I'd agree with others, speakers aren't that concerning. There are niche speaker manufacturers and used or refurbished is still a good option. To be honest, I'd also look to the used market if I where to replace my amp. Personally I don't have anything against Samsung, but I doubt they'll be a good steward of those brands. Corporate interest and niche high quality audio seems to at opposite ends of the spectrum. I could be wrong, Sony makes nice stuff, maybe Samsung will as well.
  - dsr_ 1y ago
    Samsung has actually done reasonably well with their acquisition of the Harman group in 2017: AKG, AMX, Arcam, Becker, BSS Audio, Crown, dbx, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Martin, Revel, and Soundcraft. I just object to the concentration of market power.
- bombcar 1y ago
  You could estimate it from sales or something, but Walmart has a huge wall full of various TVs, and barely one half of one aisle-side of soundbars, and no receivers/speaker setups. I suspect something like 80% of people use the TV, and of those who upgrade, use a soundbar, maybe. And even those with a dedicated theatre room, probably have other TVs that are just TV audio.
  - brianwawok 1y ago
    People who have a home theater aren’t exactly the core market for Wally World.
    - bombcar 1y ago
      Sure, but just look at the revenue. Some do build it out (and I'm sure HN has higher percentages of "home theater types" than most) - but the average house? It's a TV. Thinking over everyone I know who has a TV, I'm the only one with a receiver connected. I think one has a soundbar.
      - ryandrake 1y ago
        A lot of it is that the design of good home theater equipment is ugly and not spouse-approved. My wife simply will not tolerate big black speaker boxes and a black stack of receiver equipment in the family room. No matter how well it’s hidden away. And I know a lot of families that have the same desire for a nice looking living space.
        bombcar 1y ago
        That's where you upgrade to in-wall speakers! (It's partially a joke, but partially real - out of sight, out of mind!) https://www.crutchfield.com/g_12600/In-wall-Speakers.html https://www.crutchfield.com/g_12600/In-wall-Speakers.html Personally I think that the "takeover" of the living room by TVs and home theater has been one of the biggest "mistakes" in modern home design - they should be relegated to the basement or some other locale.
- kyriakos 1y ago
  There are some exaggerated setups showcased by users on reddit (/r/hometheater) You can see people with dedicated movie theatre-like rooms in their home. If you follow the discussions they all seem to have started where you did in your 20s and continued in the opposite direction.
  - mikepurvis 1y ago
    I never had the HTIB, but I had some old school speaker cabinets I got at a thrift store years ago and would hook them up to a broken down Kenwood amp to get nice loud music for house parties. Just in the past few years I was finally in a position to get a nice center channel, then sub, then surrounds, and then I eventually paid an electrician to pull the wires and do a 5.1.2 setup. It's certainly far from essential and overall is still pretty budget, but I love how it sounds for movies, PS5, etc.
keoneflick 1y ago
The thing is, traditional receivers wanted to be the "brains" of home theater, switching video inputs, managing audio, turning everything on. That role is no longer sensible when used with smart TVs/Apple TV boxes/Android TV boxes. As a result, traditional receivers are relegated to be being audio decoders and amplifiers. Honestly, I think there's already more manufactured and lying around than the world really needs. It was inevitable that a few product lines would be consolidated.
- bombcar 1y ago
  eARC or whatever it is really changed this. I don't need a receiver with buttons anymore, I just need one that handles eARC gracefully. We're about five years away from "no remotes" anymore, imo. As it is I only need to find the TV remote when something goes really wonky - and even then I can reset it by using the smart app to power cycle the outlet ;)
  - kyriakos 1y ago
    eARC is amazing tech - when it works. I have a recent top of the line Samsung TV, and last year's 5.1 Samsung soundbar and even though both components are from the same brand there are some very frustrating times eARC fails. The rest of the time it works like magic.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      I often get weird issues using the ARC, and have never tracked it down. I don't know if it is the audio device of the TV. Randomly, the audio will get all distorted for a random amount of time, and then suddenly it snaps back to normal. I never looked into the format to see if there's some sort of re-sync signal sent periodically that is part of ARC, but that would make sense to me based on observed behavior. When the audio gets weird, it's sounds like some sort of sample rate issue as the sound changes pitch, plays distorted, and goes out of sync with the video. My TV and audio equipment happen to have an optical connection and after switching to that away from ARC, the issue has gone away.
princevegeta89 1y ago
Out of the list, only B&W and Marantz are decent. Others are average to low quality consumer-grade audio equipment companies.
- timc3 1y ago
  I rate Denon above Marantz for AV. Marantz looks nicer, but its massively overrated and overpriced, and the sound quality is worse than Denon at the same price point.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
Pioneer is still around. TEAC too but they're a bit more mid-to-high pro market, I guess.
forevernoob 1y ago
AFAIK B&W 800D is used in many mastering studio's. I wonder what they will do with their high-end / pro audio segment, since it's quite different from your average home stereo (or even hi-fi) markets.
- SoleilAbsolu 1y ago
  I wondered the same thing...FWIW under Samsung the pro/pro-sumer audio Harman brands (JBL in particular) have managed to keep making well-regarded products from consumer Bluetooth speakers up to live PA systems and studio monitors. On the other hand, Lexicon is a former top-shelf audio brand that has pretty much languished under Harman - they no longer employ some of the world's best audio DSP talents, and have been slow to update the highly regarded Lexicon DAW plugins for native Apple Silicon.
  - vucetica 1y ago
    A few months ago I tried a new JBL receiver. It was trash (the worst I have tried and I tried 5 or 6 different ones for my room). I also saw their soundbar and their vintage speakers. I wouldn’t agree that JBL makes quality products, but that is just my experience.
kwanbix 1y ago
Consolidation is a problem. We end up with 5 companies owning all brands. That is not good for competition and for the customer.
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
I have a Marantz receiver that I’ve been using for around a decade now and it’s been excellent, having done its job well the whole time and it having continued to get updates fixing or improving things (e.g. after Spotify bricked a bunch of stuff by deprecating its old API, Marantz issued an update using the new API). Given Samsung’s track record with enshittification and support timelines I’m worried that this acquisition means all that will be going away, which is a shame. Guess I’ll be looking at Sony and Yamaha models instead going forward.
- domoregood 1y ago
  This is the enshittification comment I came here for.

by dsr_ 1y ago

neogodless 1y ago

I'm curious how large this market is. Speaking only anecdotally, when I was in my 20s, I bought a Sony "home theatre in a box" which included receiver, small subwoofer, and small satellite speakers. Over time, I upgraded to an Onkyo reciever and Polk center, surrounds, and subwoofer. But... then I decided I wanted a more minimal look, and switched to a JBL sound bar + subwoofer, which has detachable surrounds -- but I almost never utilize them. For sure, the sound is nothing compared to what I had before, but I'm mostly OK with it. All that to say, how popular are sound bars, and how popular are dedicated receivers?

baq 1y ago
Not very popular, but popular enough. If you care about sound more than looks (...and if you get the system set up and have a convincing story for your wife that it must be this way), it's the only way to experience movies 'properly'; mixed with an OLED TV, a proper subwoofer (like PB-1000 or similar) and bluray-quality content the system will be better than your average cinema experience. Now, whether that means anything when 99% of everything made for watching is just playing in the background while you're reading HN on your phone is debatable. Still wouldn't trade the setup even if I'm watching one movie per month. (I'm not even close to that high of a number...)
- skydhash 1y ago
  There are some nice speakers that can fit nicely in a living room, but rears placement are always a problem. Especially if the sofa is isolated in the middle of the room. But my SO has enjoyed nice sounds so there was no struggle there (It was gradual with a 2.0 setup before the 5.1).
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    A lot of living rooms these days are terrible for surround sound, and sound listening in general. Big, “open concept” spaces without doors and walls, often with the “living room” area occupying an odd corner of the big open blah-space. No feasible way to correctly install and aim surrounds. Also sound insulation is generally quite poor unless you deliberately do it while building the house.
mrweasel 1y ago
Probably one issue could also be that a lot of this stuff is actually pretty well made, and repairable. My old NAD amplifier is more than 25 year old and doing great. I don't need a new one. I've switched speakers a few times, to better fit the rooms as we've moved, but the amplifier just sits in a corner with the CD player and turntable. I'd agree with others, speakers aren't that concerning. There are niche speaker manufacturers and used or refurbished is still a good option. To be honest, I'd also look to the used market if I where to replace my amp. Personally I don't have anything against Samsung, but I doubt they'll be a good steward of those brands. Corporate interest and niche high quality audio seems to at opposite ends of the spectrum. I could be wrong, Sony makes nice stuff, maybe Samsung will as well.
- dsr_ 1y ago
  Samsung has actually done reasonably well with their acquisition of the Harman group in 2017: AKG, AMX, Arcam, Becker, BSS Audio, Crown, dbx, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Martin, Revel, and Soundcraft. I just object to the concentration of market power.
bombcar 1y ago
You could estimate it from sales or something, but Walmart has a huge wall full of various TVs, and barely one half of one aisle-side of soundbars, and no receivers/speaker setups. I suspect something like 80% of people use the TV, and of those who upgrade, use a soundbar, maybe. And even those with a dedicated theatre room, probably have other TVs that are just TV audio.
- brianwawok 1y ago
  People who have a home theater aren’t exactly the core market for Wally World.
  - bombcar 1y ago
    Sure, but just look at the revenue. Some do build it out (and I'm sure HN has higher percentages of "home theater types" than most) - but the average house? It's a TV. Thinking over everyone I know who has a TV, I'm the only one with a receiver connected. I think one has a soundbar.
    - ryandrake 1y ago
      A lot of it is that the design of good home theater equipment is ugly and not spouse-approved. My wife simply will not tolerate big black speaker boxes and a black stack of receiver equipment in the family room. No matter how well it’s hidden away. And I know a lot of families that have the same desire for a nice looking living space.
      - bombcar 1y ago
        That's where you upgrade to in-wall speakers! (It's partially a joke, but partially real - out of sight, out of mind!) https://www.crutchfield.com/g_12600/In-wall-Speakers.html https://www.crutchfield.com/g_12600/In-wall-Speakers.html Personally I think that the "takeover" of the living room by TVs and home theater has been one of the biggest "mistakes" in modern home design - they should be relegated to the basement or some other locale.
kyriakos 1y ago
There are some exaggerated setups showcased by users on reddit (/r/hometheater) You can see people with dedicated movie theatre-like rooms in their home. If you follow the discussions they all seem to have started where you did in your 20s and continued in the opposite direction.
- mikepurvis 1y ago
  I never had the HTIB, but I had some old school speaker cabinets I got at a thrift store years ago and would hook them up to a broken down Kenwood amp to get nice loud music for house parties. Just in the past few years I was finally in a position to get a nice center channel, then sub, then surrounds, and then I eventually paid an electrician to pull the wires and do a 5.1.2 setup. It's certainly far from essential and overall is still pretty budget, but I love how it sounds for movies, PS5, etc.

keoneflick 1y ago

The thing is, traditional receivers wanted to be the "brains" of home theater, switching video inputs, managing audio, turning everything on. That role is no longer sensible when used with smart TVs/Apple TV boxes/Android TV boxes. As a result, traditional receivers are relegated to be being audio decoders and amplifiers. Honestly, I think there's already more manufactured and lying around than the world really needs. It was inevitable that a few product lines would be consolidated.

bombcar 1y ago
eARC or whatever it is really changed this. I don't need a receiver with buttons anymore, I just need one that handles eARC gracefully. We're about five years away from "no remotes" anymore, imo. As it is I only need to find the TV remote when something goes really wonky - and even then I can reset it by using the smart app to power cycle the outlet ;)
- kyriakos 1y ago
  eARC is amazing tech - when it works. I have a recent top of the line Samsung TV, and last year's 5.1 Samsung soundbar and even though both components are from the same brand there are some very frustrating times eARC fails. The rest of the time it works like magic.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    I often get weird issues using the ARC, and have never tracked it down. I don't know if it is the audio device of the TV. Randomly, the audio will get all distorted for a random amount of time, and then suddenly it snaps back to normal. I never looked into the format to see if there's some sort of re-sync signal sent periodically that is part of ARC, but that would make sense to me based on observed behavior. When the audio gets weird, it's sounds like some sort of sample rate issue as the sound changes pitch, plays distorted, and goes out of sync with the video. My TV and audio equipment happen to have an optical connection and after switching to that away from ARC, the issue has gone away.

princevegeta89 1y ago

Out of the list, only B&W and Marantz are decent. Others are average to low quality consumer-grade audio equipment companies.

timc3 1y ago
I rate Denon above Marantz for AV. Marantz looks nicer, but its massively overrated and overpriced, and the sound quality is worse than Denon at the same price point.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

Pioneer is still around. TEAC too but they're a bit more mid-to-high pro market, I guess.

forevernoob 1y ago

AFAIK B&W 800D is used in many mastering studio's. I wonder what they will do with their high-end / pro audio segment, since it's quite different from your average home stereo (or even hi-fi) markets.

SoleilAbsolu 1y ago
I wondered the same thing...FWIW under Samsung the pro/pro-sumer audio Harman brands (JBL in particular) have managed to keep making well-regarded products from consumer Bluetooth speakers up to live PA systems and studio monitors. On the other hand, Lexicon is a former top-shelf audio brand that has pretty much languished under Harman - they no longer employ some of the world's best audio DSP talents, and have been slow to update the highly regarded Lexicon DAW plugins for native Apple Silicon.
- vucetica 1y ago
  A few months ago I tried a new JBL receiver. It was trash (the worst I have tried and I tried 5 or 6 different ones for my room). I also saw their soundbar and their vintage speakers. I wouldn’t agree that JBL makes quality products, but that is just my experience.

kwanbix 1y ago

Consolidation is a problem. We end up with 5 companies owning all brands. That is not good for competition and for the customer.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

I have a Marantz receiver that I’ve been using for around a decade now and it’s been excellent, having done its job well the whole time and it having continued to get updates fixing or improving things (e.g. after Spotify bricked a bunch of stuff by deprecating its old API, Marantz issued an update using the new API). Given Samsung’s track record with enshittification and support timelines I’m worried that this acquisition means all that will be going away, which is a shame. Guess I’ll be looking at Sony and Yamaha models instead going forward.

domoregood 1y ago
This is the enshittification comment I came here for.