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Realistically speaking it correlates extremely well with self control. Not perfect and I'm not talking about a few extra pounds. But morbid obesity? Yeah pretty

Realistically speaking it correlates extremely well with self control. Not perfect and I'm not talking about a few extra pounds. But morbid obesity? Yeah pretty much always ..

rekenaut 1y ago
I don't know that that's true. For subset of people, this correlation may be true. To be extremely anecdotal though, I have never had trouble maintaining my weight even though I don't exercise, have a mostly sedentary lifestyle, and don't pay attention to my diet. I just got lucky in that I feel hungry more rarely than others. I think it would be absurd to say this is a reflection of my self control, and I am sure there are others that this applies to too.
- phil21 1y ago
  Being skinny does not, but being morbidly obese absolutely is a strong correlation to the point of it being a rounding error. Medical conditions that cause it are extremely rare. For better or worse, as a formerly morbidly obese person I can say society doesn’t really care why - they absolutely take you less seriously overall regardless of the underlying reasons.
  - anon291 1y ago
    > as a formerly morbidly obese person Congratulations!
  - cameronh90 1y ago
    I would suggest that you're overstating the certainty of your view. At least in how it relates to rekenaut's point. Purely focussing on people who are fat because they eat too much (which includes myself, albeit also now formerly morbidly obese thanks to Mounjaro): (1) The studies find a statistically strong correlation, but that doesn't mean everyone who is morbidly obese has poor self control. The raw data still tends to show a big overlap of obese people with good self control and thin people with poor self control - so it's not reasonable to say anyone in that group is just a rounding error. (2) The way that food self-control is usually measured is, for example, delayed gratification testing with food. It's not surprising that an obese person will do worse at this, but it doesn't necessarily mean the issue is self-control. It could be that their experience of hunger is stronger than the person who is able to exercise more restraint, so even if they're exercising the same level of self-restraint, they're going to give in sooner. It'd be like saying someone who can hold a plank for longer has more determination. There's a bit of that obviously, but then there's also (much more importantly) how fit and muscular you are. (3) Self-control itself can be, and often is, a medical issue. Obviously there's ADHD/Autism/depression/thyroid issues/so on. which affect your mind in the general sense, but many common drugs including antidepressants, antipsychotics, antihistamines, etc. are also well known for causing obesity. Science still doesn't know why, exactly, they cause weight gain, other than it's through increased caloric intake - but not clear what drives it. (4) This one is more speculative, but when I started taking Mounjaro, my general self-control increased. This is quite a common reported side effect. There's no evidence (yet?) that it directly affects your brain in any way that would affect self-control, but nevertheless it seems to for many. Separately, we know that being hungry seems to reduce your general self-control. It doesn't seem like a huge leap of logic to think that maybe the reason Mounjaro is having such powerful psychological effects on people is actually because being hungry is quite a powerful general non-specific motivator -- in which case, the studies testing calorie consumption against general measures of self-control might be producing a correct result but have the cause and effect the wrong way round. Cards on the table, I'd say the proximal cause for why I'm fat is because I am less to resist food than the average person. However, my general self-control seems to be pretty much fine, and I only got fat after I started taking antidepressants for anxiety. Impulsive would be one of the last words anyone would use to describe me - it's just isolated to food as far as I can tell. Prior to Mounjaro, I was just thinking about eating pretty much all the time. While I'm eating, I'd be thinking about what I'm going to eat next. I was never NOT hungry.
    - throwaway2037 1y ago
      > when I started taking Mounjaro, my general self-control increased. This is quite a common reported side effect. Wow, this is fascinating. I write that without sarcasm; I really mean it. I put this in the same (unproven) category as when middle-aged men start to do weight lifting (nothing too crazy), it "magically" cures many mental health issues, such as anxiety and depression. (The number of anecdotes I have heard with this pattern boggles my mind.) Do you think part of your improved self-control is just feeling better about yourself? Allow me to extrapolate a bit here: If you are depressed, it is "easy" to throw away self-control and eat, eat, eat. Might the reverse also be true? If you are less depressed, it is easier to harness your self-control and eat less? It seems very plausible to me, but nearly impossible to prove the mechanism, except to observe it with a careful study. Further, I am curious to hear more about the positive effects on your life after your self-control increased. Example: Are you doing better in relationships, or better at work... or the sun shines brighter in your life now... or what? These kinds of HN posts with high quality, first hand anecdata are some of my favourites.
      - anon291 1y ago
        I am not the commenter above. However, depression and lack of discipline/self-control form a negative feedback loop. Lack of discipline causes you to be depressed, which causes you to have less discipline. A lot of practices that seemed 'strict' to us that cultures would practice in the past are socially evolved ways to re-instill discipline via social shame. For example, the fasting days in the liturgical calendar. While you may have become undisciplined personally, when there's a fasting day that comes around every week, or an especially important one that comes by every year, you might decide to make a change. For me personally, as a Catholic, I was able to kick my bad dietary habits during Lent. I wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise. The social pressure of having to abide by my rules helped me very much, and this was possible because my parents were 'strict' about Lent with us. Ignoring the spiritual aspect completely, I think these practices are insanely useful which is why every culture has them. But we've thrown them out the window for some reason.
        1y ago
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  This. 100%. I was blessed with good genes from my parents. It is so easy for me to maintain a reasonable weight. (Same for them.) Until very recently, I hardly did any exercise for more than 15 years, except the occasional weekend hike (nothing too crazy). Yes, there is some degree of self-control around eating, but lucky people with good genes love to wag their finger as people who struggle to maintain their weight. Whenever diet/weight issues come up on HN, there are always some very interesting posts by people with food control issues. They know their brain is broken (too hungry too frequently, etc.), but they cannot do very much about it. I'm happy to see that millions of people are finally able to lose weight and keep it off using GLP-1 drugs.
kenjackson 1y ago
Why would it correlate with self-control? It seems much more likely to correlate with interests and food preferences. My old college roommate just loved vegetables and complained how he couldn't gain weight, so would take weight gainer powder. I suggested eating hamburgers and pizza, and he said that he couldn't stand the taste. His lack of weight had little to do with self-control. And given how much weight can be impacted by relatively small changes in diet over a long period of time, makes me think that self-control likely plays little role. The fact that I love basketball and not video games doesn't give me more self-control. It just means I enjoy doing something that burns a lot of calories.
- Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
  Agreed. Something I've noticed with "naturally skinny" people: They simply don't have the appetite of the obese. They don't need to self-regulate their eating, as they just don't have the desire to eat. Their sense of hunger is properly calibrated. If they eat a large lunch, they won't even be hungry at dinner time and might just have a snack if they eat at all. As an obese over-eater, I'm insanely jealous. I'm almost constantly hungry. For me to lose weight, I have to ignore the literal pain in my stomach and the strong biological urge to eat. I literally just finished my lunch 45 minutes ago which consisted of a roast beef sandwich (with like 8 oz of roast beef) and some chips. About 800 calories. I'm still hungry. I'm not dehydrated and confusing thirst with hunger. My urine is almost completely clear. > I suggested eating hamburgers and pizza, and he said that he couldn't stand the taste. His lack of weight had little to do with self-control. Absolutely wild. Maybe that's the next level of human evolution: To have a brain that understands that food will always be readily available in modern civilization and so finding high-calorie foods delicious and providing a dopamine hit for consuming them isn't necessary.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    This. People assume that hunger is the same for everyone, and that can be used to simply rank the level of willpower people are exerting against the drive. But it's not. Some people have different appetites which leave them skinny or permanently hungry. Some people can and do eat a lot more than others for less weight gain. This is why the drugs are so effective: they're appetite suppressants.

Realistically speaking it correlates extremely well with self control. Not perfect and I'm not talking about a few extra pounds. But morbid obesity? Yeah pretty much always ..

rekenaut 1y ago

I don't know that that's true. For subset of people, this correlation may be true. To be extremely anecdotal though, I have never had trouble maintaining my weight even though I don't exercise, have a mostly sedentary lifestyle, and don't pay attention to my diet. I just got lucky in that I feel hungry more rarely than others. I think it would be absurd to say this is a reflection of my self control, and I am sure there are others that this applies to too.

phil21 1y ago
Being skinny does not, but being morbidly obese absolutely is a strong correlation to the point of it being a rounding error. Medical conditions that cause it are extremely rare. For better or worse, as a formerly morbidly obese person I can say society doesn’t really care why - they absolutely take you less seriously overall regardless of the underlying reasons.
- anon291 1y ago
  > as a formerly morbidly obese person Congratulations!
- cameronh90 1y ago
  I would suggest that you're overstating the certainty of your view. At least in how it relates to rekenaut's point. Purely focussing on people who are fat because they eat too much (which includes myself, albeit also now formerly morbidly obese thanks to Mounjaro): (1) The studies find a statistically strong correlation, but that doesn't mean everyone who is morbidly obese has poor self control. The raw data still tends to show a big overlap of obese people with good self control and thin people with poor self control - so it's not reasonable to say anyone in that group is just a rounding error. (2) The way that food self-control is usually measured is, for example, delayed gratification testing with food. It's not surprising that an obese person will do worse at this, but it doesn't necessarily mean the issue is self-control. It could be that their experience of hunger is stronger than the person who is able to exercise more restraint, so even if they're exercising the same level of self-restraint, they're going to give in sooner. It'd be like saying someone who can hold a plank for longer has more determination. There's a bit of that obviously, but then there's also (much more importantly) how fit and muscular you are. (3) Self-control itself can be, and often is, a medical issue. Obviously there's ADHD/Autism/depression/thyroid issues/so on. which affect your mind in the general sense, but many common drugs including antidepressants, antipsychotics, antihistamines, etc. are also well known for causing obesity. Science still doesn't know why, exactly, they cause weight gain, other than it's through increased caloric intake - but not clear what drives it. (4) This one is more speculative, but when I started taking Mounjaro, my general self-control increased. This is quite a common reported side effect. There's no evidence (yet?) that it directly affects your brain in any way that would affect self-control, but nevertheless it seems to for many. Separately, we know that being hungry seems to reduce your general self-control. It doesn't seem like a huge leap of logic to think that maybe the reason Mounjaro is having such powerful psychological effects on people is actually because being hungry is quite a powerful general non-specific motivator -- in which case, the studies testing calorie consumption against general measures of self-control might be producing a correct result but have the cause and effect the wrong way round. Cards on the table, I'd say the proximal cause for why I'm fat is because I am less to resist food than the average person. However, my general self-control seems to be pretty much fine, and I only got fat after I started taking antidepressants for anxiety. Impulsive would be one of the last words anyone would use to describe me - it's just isolated to food as far as I can tell. Prior to Mounjaro, I was just thinking about eating pretty much all the time. While I'm eating, I'd be thinking about what I'm going to eat next. I was never NOT hungry.
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    > when I started taking Mounjaro, my general self-control increased. This is quite a common reported side effect. Wow, this is fascinating. I write that without sarcasm; I really mean it. I put this in the same (unproven) category as when middle-aged men start to do weight lifting (nothing too crazy), it "magically" cures many mental health issues, such as anxiety and depression. (The number of anecdotes I have heard with this pattern boggles my mind.) Do you think part of your improved self-control is just feeling better about yourself? Allow me to extrapolate a bit here: If you are depressed, it is "easy" to throw away self-control and eat, eat, eat. Might the reverse also be true? If you are less depressed, it is easier to harness your self-control and eat less? It seems very plausible to me, but nearly impossible to prove the mechanism, except to observe it with a careful study. Further, I am curious to hear more about the positive effects on your life after your self-control increased. Example: Are you doing better in relationships, or better at work... or the sun shines brighter in your life now... or what? These kinds of HN posts with high quality, first hand anecdata are some of my favourites.
    - anon291 1y ago
      I am not the commenter above. However, depression and lack of discipline/self-control form a negative feedback loop. Lack of discipline causes you to be depressed, which causes you to have less discipline. A lot of practices that seemed 'strict' to us that cultures would practice in the past are socially evolved ways to re-instill discipline via social shame. For example, the fasting days in the liturgical calendar. While you may have become undisciplined personally, when there's a fasting day that comes around every week, or an especially important one that comes by every year, you might decide to make a change. For me personally, as a Catholic, I was able to kick my bad dietary habits during Lent. I wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise. The social pressure of having to abide by my rules helped me very much, and this was possible because my parents were 'strict' about Lent with us. Ignoring the spiritual aspect completely, I think these practices are insanely useful which is why every culture has them. But we've thrown them out the window for some reason.
      - 1y ago
throwaway2037 1y ago
This. 100%. I was blessed with good genes from my parents. It is so easy for me to maintain a reasonable weight. (Same for them.) Until very recently, I hardly did any exercise for more than 15 years, except the occasional weekend hike (nothing too crazy). Yes, there is some degree of self-control around eating, but lucky people with good genes love to wag their finger as people who struggle to maintain their weight. Whenever diet/weight issues come up on HN, there are always some very interesting posts by people with food control issues. They know their brain is broken (too hungry too frequently, etc.), but they cannot do very much about it. I'm happy to see that millions of people are finally able to lose weight and keep it off using GLP-1 drugs.

kenjackson 1y ago

Why would it correlate with self-control? It seems much more likely to correlate with interests and food preferences. My old college roommate just loved vegetables and complained how he couldn't gain weight, so would take weight gainer powder. I suggested eating hamburgers and pizza, and he said that he couldn't stand the taste. His lack of weight had little to do with self-control. And given how much weight can be impacted by relatively small changes in diet over a long period of time, makes me think that self-control likely plays little role. The fact that I love basketball and not video games doesn't give me more self-control. It just means I enjoy doing something that burns a lot of calories.

Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
Agreed. Something I've noticed with "naturally skinny" people: They simply don't have the appetite of the obese. They don't need to self-regulate their eating, as they just don't have the desire to eat. Their sense of hunger is properly calibrated. If they eat a large lunch, they won't even be hungry at dinner time and might just have a snack if they eat at all. As an obese over-eater, I'm insanely jealous. I'm almost constantly hungry. For me to lose weight, I have to ignore the literal pain in my stomach and the strong biological urge to eat. I literally just finished my lunch 45 minutes ago which consisted of a roast beef sandwich (with like 8 oz of roast beef) and some chips. About 800 calories. I'm still hungry. I'm not dehydrated and confusing thirst with hunger. My urine is almost completely clear. > I suggested eating hamburgers and pizza, and he said that he couldn't stand the taste. His lack of weight had little to do with self-control. Absolutely wild. Maybe that's the next level of human evolution: To have a brain that understands that food will always be readily available in modern civilization and so finding high-calorie foods delicious and providing a dopamine hit for consuming them isn't necessary.
- pjc50 1y ago
  This. People assume that hunger is the same for everyone, and that can be used to simply rank the level of willpower people are exerting against the drive. But it's not. Some people have different appetites which leave them skinny or permanently hungry. Some people can and do eat a lot more than others for less weight gain. This is why the drugs are so effective: they're appetite suppressants.