7 ms·

TBH, I'm surprised this isn't already common. It is very similar to what EVs do, due to the relatively high regenerative braking.

by _ea1k 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
HPsquared 1y ago
You'd only see it on newer bikes with ABS, they seem likely to have more sensors and "electronics" in the brake system. In that kind of system the deceleration could be inferred from existing speed signals. I wouldn't be surprised if ABS systems already estimate the engine braking torque directly.
- cj 1y ago
  What is the general consensus on ABS braking in motorcycles? Really curious to hear from anyone who has rode a bike equipped with it. For some reason the idea of a bike interfering with brake controls seems like it could feel unsafe if the system isn't designed really well. Extremely low margin for error when it comes to braking on a 2 wheel vehicle especially in suboptimal conditions. I could see ABS braking being fine for the back tire, but the idea of automatic braking on the front tire would scare me.
  - HPsquared 1y ago
    Front brake is where it's most beneficial as the front wheel is what keeps the bike upright. If you lock the front wheel, especially in a turn, the bike falls over almost instantly. edit: Rear wheel locking gives a bit more time to react. Personally the main safety benefit is for emergency braking in wet conditions. ABS also allows to use full brakes in the wet without worrying so much about falling over. That's the real benefit, real-world it shortens your stopping distance because of that increased confidence in using the brake.
    - keyringlight 1y ago
      Yes, as I understand it ABS catches the occasion where your braking overwhelms the wheel-road friction the wheel locks and starts to skid. If you're before that threshold then it doesn't activate and doesn't negatively affect anything, if you do lock then ABS activating is better than not having it and the remedy is the same as without ABS where you release the brake enough for the wheel to turn again. A skid is the least desirable in terms of control and stopping distance, having ABS lets a driver hit the brakes hard in an emergency with more confidence.
    - tstrimple 1y ago
      > ABS also allows to use full brakes in the wet without worrying so much about falling over. That's the real benefit, real-world it shortens your stopping distance because of that increased confidence in using the brake. I think this point is worth emphasizing. You'll hear from a lot of folks on motorcycle forums that ABS will increase stopping distance. Which is true for great drivers performing threshold braking. How many motorcycle riders actually practice front braking on their non ABS bike until they lock up the front wheel to really learn the limits of themselves and their bike? For most people, you'll be able to use more brakes and stop in a shorter distance in more conditions with ABS while maintaining control of the vehicle.
      - xeromal 1y ago
        I'd consider myself a pretty good rider but I've caught myself once or twice jamming on the brakes when a chaotic accident unfolds in front of me and the lizard brain takes over. I live in LA so lots of traffic and lots of accidents are common and any technology that helps my lizard brain keep me alive in a positive in my book. I recently crashed cornering during a light mist and now I'm on the looking for anything that helps lean slippage. I know you can't fix stupid but still hoping something is out there. My old and busted vstrom needs an upgrade.
  - sgt 1y ago
    Most, if not all, modern motorcycles already come with ABS braking. For many motorcycles it's also adjustable, for example switching off ABS in the rear while retaining it in the front, for those riding offroad and dirt. Many bikes also come with cornering ABS, meaning that if the motorcycle is at an angle, the ABS comes in gradually. Overall ABS is pretty much a "solved" problem right now, on motorcycles 2012+ at the very least. Earlier ABS wasn't that great. I had a BMW F800GS in 2010 and the ABS was horrible on bumpy roads. You basically had no braking if it kicked in.
    - sidewndr46 1y ago
      If you're in Australia where it is mandated, sure. In most of the world, no motorcycles have ABS
      - Reason077 1y ago
        It is mandatory in many countries, not just Australia. Europe, Japan, Brazil, etc, all require ABS on new motorcyles.
        sidewndr46 1y ago
        "Europe" is not and never has been a country to my knowledge.
        topsecret 1y ago
        Would you prefer to read a full list of EU member countries instead? As well as Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden, ABS is also required in the UK.
        subscribed 1y ago
        ...but it has mostly harmonized road rules, eg in relation to the ABS on the bigger bikes.
  - sidewndr46 1y ago
    ABS on a motorcycle is pretty great on the roadways. The issue I've heard from people is that it can't be disabled off road on many motorcycles. Most owners just unplugged the sensors entirely as a result, causing the system to indicate failure.
  - floxy 1y ago
    >I could see ABS braking being fine for the back tire, but the idea of automatic braking on the front tire would scare me. Just to be clear, Anti-Lock Braking (ABS) is different than Automated Emergency Braking (AEB). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_emergency_braking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_emergency_braking_sy...
  - subscribed 1y ago
    I'm very happy with my ABS (2023 F850 GS), especially since its "aggressiveness" depends on the riding mode. Obviously it's tilt- and acceleration-aware, so I'm confide it's safe.
  - tiew9Vii 1y ago
    It works very well. It’s not automatic braking. It’s automatically letting off the brakes for a fraction of a second to prevent locking up, aka anti-lock braking system If it does kick in you get a slight pulsing on the leaver which means unless you are emergency braking, back off. As far as the front goes, you never want the front to lock as you are almost certainly going down. For off-road abs modes normally they turn rear off completely so you can deliberately lock it and decrease the sensitivity on the front but still keep the abs on for the front.
  - bityard 1y ago
    There's no such thing as "consensus" in any hobby, but the general trends are: 1. ABS on motorbikes has been proven to prevent lock-ups and therefore accidents, especially among newer riders who are more likely to grab all the brakes in situations where modulation of brake application is required to prevent an accident. 2. Traditionalists say that ABS keeps new riders from having to learn to correctly modulate the brakes and thus keeps them reliant on ABS forever, and that experienced riders can stop quicker without ABS. (The last point is technically true but it requires a highly-skilled rider and a certain set of conditions.) ABS is bikes IS typically designed very well. (Although I have to take the Internet's word for it since my bike is a 1979 GS850G.)
  - enragedcacti 1y ago
    There's a great FortNine video showing the pros and cons. The very short of it is that the perfect rider can stop faster without ABS but ABS + good technique can achieve very similar results while drastically reducing the consequences of panic braking. This isn't mentioned in the video, but ABS also enables more aggressive use of linked brake systems, which also improve worst-case safety when a rider panics and uses only one brake or the wrong brake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY
  - camtarn 1y ago
    Don't know about general consensus, but I'm a big fan. I've had an emergency stop (deer ran out into the road) on a bike not equipped with it, and turns out that in an emergency I will just jam on the brakes and lock the wheels. Luckily I was going straight, and the bike stayed upright.
  - LordHeini 1y ago
    In Europe new motorcycles must have ABS on both wheels since 2017. Its a good thing. While it is possible to stop in less distance without ABS, in real live emergency situations ABS usually is of great help due to the no skill required, additional control. For example if you take the sudden car running in front of you from a side road. You will instinctively pull the brakes hard on a road with unknown slipperiness. Maybe the car then stops in the last second or is really fast so there is space, then you need control to ride around the car. You really don't want your rear wheel locking up and the bike going sideways or doing a stoppie on your front wheel which completely removes any way of obstacle avoidance. The same is true if over breaking in a curve, if you can handle the bike standing up you can brake astonishingly hard in curves. I would not recommend it though it feels really weird being slippery in a curve. On rainy days i do even like traction control. It saved my ass a few times where i accelerated out of a curve a bit to enthusiastically on wet foliage.
asdsadasdasd123 1y ago
Im surprised new cars dont just go off of a gyro decel reading, don't modern cars already have a gyro?
- sokoloff 1y ago
  An accelerometer would be a far better sensor than a gyro here. (You want to measure linear acceleration not angular velocity.)

TBH, I'm surprised this isn't already common. It is very similar to what EVs do, due to the relatively high regenerative braking.

by _ea1k 1y ago

TBH, I'm surprised this isn't already common. It is very similar to what EVs do, due to the relatively high regenerative braking.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

HPsquared 1y ago

You'd only see it on newer bikes with ABS, they seem likely to have more sensors and "electronics" in the brake system. In that kind of system the deceleration could be inferred from existing speed signals. I wouldn't be surprised if ABS systems already estimate the engine braking torque directly.

cj 1y ago
What is the general consensus on ABS braking in motorcycles? Really curious to hear from anyone who has rode a bike equipped with it. For some reason the idea of a bike interfering with brake controls seems like it could feel unsafe if the system isn't designed really well. Extremely low margin for error when it comes to braking on a 2 wheel vehicle especially in suboptimal conditions. I could see ABS braking being fine for the back tire, but the idea of automatic braking on the front tire would scare me.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  Front brake is where it's most beneficial as the front wheel is what keeps the bike upright. If you lock the front wheel, especially in a turn, the bike falls over almost instantly. edit: Rear wheel locking gives a bit more time to react. Personally the main safety benefit is for emergency braking in wet conditions. ABS also allows to use full brakes in the wet without worrying so much about falling over. That's the real benefit, real-world it shortens your stopping distance because of that increased confidence in using the brake.
  - keyringlight 1y ago
    Yes, as I understand it ABS catches the occasion where your braking overwhelms the wheel-road friction the wheel locks and starts to skid. If you're before that threshold then it doesn't activate and doesn't negatively affect anything, if you do lock then ABS activating is better than not having it and the remedy is the same as without ABS where you release the brake enough for the wheel to turn again. A skid is the least desirable in terms of control and stopping distance, having ABS lets a driver hit the brakes hard in an emergency with more confidence.
  - tstrimple 1y ago
    > ABS also allows to use full brakes in the wet without worrying so much about falling over. That's the real benefit, real-world it shortens your stopping distance because of that increased confidence in using the brake. I think this point is worth emphasizing. You'll hear from a lot of folks on motorcycle forums that ABS will increase stopping distance. Which is true for great drivers performing threshold braking. How many motorcycle riders actually practice front braking on their non ABS bike until they lock up the front wheel to really learn the limits of themselves and their bike? For most people, you'll be able to use more brakes and stop in a shorter distance in more conditions with ABS while maintaining control of the vehicle.
    - xeromal 1y ago
      I'd consider myself a pretty good rider but I've caught myself once or twice jamming on the brakes when a chaotic accident unfolds in front of me and the lizard brain takes over. I live in LA so lots of traffic and lots of accidents are common and any technology that helps my lizard brain keep me alive in a positive in my book. I recently crashed cornering during a light mist and now I'm on the looking for anything that helps lean slippage. I know you can't fix stupid but still hoping something is out there. My old and busted vstrom needs an upgrade.
- sgt 1y ago
  Most, if not all, modern motorcycles already come with ABS braking. For many motorcycles it's also adjustable, for example switching off ABS in the rear while retaining it in the front, for those riding offroad and dirt. Many bikes also come with cornering ABS, meaning that if the motorcycle is at an angle, the ABS comes in gradually. Overall ABS is pretty much a "solved" problem right now, on motorcycles 2012+ at the very least. Earlier ABS wasn't that great. I had a BMW F800GS in 2010 and the ABS was horrible on bumpy roads. You basically had no braking if it kicked in.
  - sidewndr46 1y ago
    If you're in Australia where it is mandated, sure. In most of the world, no motorcycles have ABS
    - Reason077 1y ago
      It is mandatory in many countries, not just Australia. Europe, Japan, Brazil, etc, all require ABS on new motorcyles.
      - sidewndr46 1y ago
        "Europe" is not and never has been a country to my knowledge.
        topsecret 1y ago
        Would you prefer to read a full list of EU member countries instead? As well as Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden, ABS is also required in the UK.
        subscribed 1y ago
        ...but it has mostly harmonized road rules, eg in relation to the ABS on the bigger bikes.
- sidewndr46 1y ago
  ABS on a motorcycle is pretty great on the roadways. The issue I've heard from people is that it can't be disabled off road on many motorcycles. Most owners just unplugged the sensors entirely as a result, causing the system to indicate failure.
- floxy 1y ago
  >I could see ABS braking being fine for the back tire, but the idea of automatic braking on the front tire would scare me. Just to be clear, Anti-Lock Braking (ABS) is different than Automated Emergency Braking (AEB). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_emergency_braking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_emergency_braking_sy...
- subscribed 1y ago
  I'm very happy with my ABS (2023 F850 GS), especially since its "aggressiveness" depends on the riding mode. Obviously it's tilt- and acceleration-aware, so I'm confide it's safe.
- tiew9Vii 1y ago
  It works very well. It’s not automatic braking. It’s automatically letting off the brakes for a fraction of a second to prevent locking up, aka anti-lock braking system If it does kick in you get a slight pulsing on the leaver which means unless you are emergency braking, back off. As far as the front goes, you never want the front to lock as you are almost certainly going down. For off-road abs modes normally they turn rear off completely so you can deliberately lock it and decrease the sensitivity on the front but still keep the abs on for the front.
- bityard 1y ago
  There's no such thing as "consensus" in any hobby, but the general trends are: 1. ABS on motorbikes has been proven to prevent lock-ups and therefore accidents, especially among newer riders who are more likely to grab all the brakes in situations where modulation of brake application is required to prevent an accident. 2. Traditionalists say that ABS keeps new riders from having to learn to correctly modulate the brakes and thus keeps them reliant on ABS forever, and that experienced riders can stop quicker without ABS. (The last point is technically true but it requires a highly-skilled rider and a certain set of conditions.) ABS is bikes IS typically designed very well. (Although I have to take the Internet's word for it since my bike is a 1979 GS850G.)
- enragedcacti 1y ago
  There's a great FortNine video showing the pros and cons. The very short of it is that the perfect rider can stop faster without ABS but ABS + good technique can achieve very similar results while drastically reducing the consequences of panic braking. This isn't mentioned in the video, but ABS also enables more aggressive use of linked brake systems, which also improve worst-case safety when a rider panics and uses only one brake or the wrong brake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY
- camtarn 1y ago
  Don't know about general consensus, but I'm a big fan. I've had an emergency stop (deer ran out into the road) on a bike not equipped with it, and turns out that in an emergency I will just jam on the brakes and lock the wheels. Luckily I was going straight, and the bike stayed upright.
- LordHeini 1y ago
  In Europe new motorcycles must have ABS on both wheels since 2017. Its a good thing. While it is possible to stop in less distance without ABS, in real live emergency situations ABS usually is of great help due to the no skill required, additional control. For example if you take the sudden car running in front of you from a side road. You will instinctively pull the brakes hard on a road with unknown slipperiness. Maybe the car then stops in the last second or is really fast so there is space, then you need control to ride around the car. You really don't want your rear wheel locking up and the bike going sideways or doing a stoppie on your front wheel which completely removes any way of obstacle avoidance. The same is true if over breaking in a curve, if you can handle the bike standing up you can brake astonishingly hard in curves. I would not recommend it though it feels really weird being slippery in a curve. On rainy days i do even like traction control. It saved my ass a few times where i accelerated out of a curve a bit to enthusiastically on wet foliage.

asdsadasdasd123 1y ago

Im surprised new cars dont just go off of a gyro decel reading, don't modern cars already have a gyro?

sokoloff 1y ago
An accelerometer would be a far better sensor than a gyro here. (You want to measure linear acceleration not angular velocity.)