5 ms·

I was using Zed up until a few months ago. I got fed up with the entire AI panel being an editable area, so sometimes I ended up clobbering it. I switched to Cu

by ammmir 1y ago

I was using Zed up until a few months ago. I got fed up with the entire AI panel being an editable area, so sometimes I ended up clobbering it. I switched to Cursor, but now I don't "trust" the the editor and its undo stack, I've lost code as a result of it, particularly when you're in mid-review of an agentic edit, but decide to edit the edit. The undo/redo gets difficult to track, I wish there was some heirarchical tree view of history. The restore checkpoint/redo is too linear for my lizard brain. Am I wrong to want a tree-based agentic IDE? Why has nobody built it?

senko 1y ago
> I got fed up with the entire AI panel being an editable area, so sometimes I ended up clobbering it. They fixed that with the new agent panel, which now works more like the other AI sidebars. I was (mildly) annoyed by that too. The new UI still has rough edges but I like the change.
- freehorse 1y ago
  Interesting. I actually like the editable format of the chat interface because it allows fixing small stuff on the fly (instead of having to talk about it with the model) and de-cluttering the chat after a few back and forths make it a mess (instead of having to start anew), which makes the context window smaller and less confusing to the model, esp for local ones. Also, the editable form makes more sense to me, and it feels more natural and simple to interact with an LLM assistant with it.
  - ntonozzi 1y ago
    The old panel still exists, they call it a text thread.
    - dtkav 1y ago
      Yeah, but text threads cannot be used as context in the inline assist right now so there's no way to apply the code.
      - senko 1y ago
        What, that was a thing? I was copypasteing manually, which was annoying and error prone, that's why I like the new agent panel more. Oops, I guess.
        dtkav 1y ago
        Yeah, It was great because you were in control of where and when the edits happened. So you could manage the context with great care, then go over to the editor and select specific regions and then "pull in" the changes that were discussed. I guess it was silly that I was always typing "use the new code" in every inline assist message. A hotkey to "pull new code" into a selected region would have been sweet. I don't really want to "set it and forget it" and then come back to some mega diff that is like 30% wrong. Especially right now where it keeps getting stuck and doing nothing for 30m.
      - freehorse 1y ago
        Ah that's a bummer. You can still add threads as context, but that you cannot use slash commands there, so the only way to add them or other stuff in the context is to click buttons with the mouse. It would be nice if at least slash commands were working there. edit: actually it is still possible to include text threads in there
        dtkav 1y ago
        You can add agent threads as context, but right now adding text threads as context doesn't work.
        freehorse 1y ago
        It actually seems to work for me. I have an active text thread and it was added automatically to my inline prompt in the file. There was this box on the bottom of the inline text box. I think I had to click it the first time to include the context, but the subsequent times it was included by default.
  - dtkav 1y ago
    Yes! Editing the whole buffer is a major feature because the more you keep around failed attempts and trash the dumber the model gets (and more expensive). If you're working on stuff like marketing websites that are well represented in the model dataset then things will just fly, but if you're building something that is more niche it can be super important to tune the context -- in some cases this is the differentiating feature between being able to use AI assistance at all (otherwise the failure rate just goes to 100%).
  - koito17 1y ago
    > I actually like the editable format of the chat interface because it allows fixing small stuff on the fly Fully agreed. This was the killer feature of Zed (and locally-hosted LLMs). Delete all tokens after the first mistake spotted in generated code. Then correct the mistake and re-run the model. This greatly improved code generation in my experience. I am not sure if cloud-based LLMs even allow modifying assistant output (I would assume not since it becomes a trivial way to bypass safety mechanisms).
    - senko 1y ago
      > I am not sure if cloud-based LLMs even allow modifying assistant output. In general they do. For each request, you include the complete context as JSON, including previous assistant output. You can change that as you wish.
    - freehorse 1y ago
      The only issue I would imagine is not being able to use prompt caching, which can increase the cost of API calls, but I am not sure if prompt caching is used in general in such a context in the first place. Otherwise you just send the "history" in a json file, there is nothing mystical about llm chats really. If you use an API you can just send to autocomplete whatever you want.
- cedws 1y ago
  I’m on the opposite end, I hate the new panel. It’s less space efficient, slash commands are gone, and I can’t figure out how to clear the chat.
cies 1y ago
All vims and emacses can have undo-tree (as a plugin iirc). Many devs use it. Vote/read-up here for the feature on Zed: https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/issues/17455 https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/issues/17455 And here on VSCode: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/20889 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/20889
conartist6 1y ago
Worry not, for it is being built. You will not catch me using the words "agentic IDE" to describe what I'm doing because its primary purpose isn't to be used by AI any more than the primary purpose of a car is to drive itself. But yes, what I am doing is creating an IDE where the primary integration surface for humans, scripts, and AIs is not the 2D text buffer, but the embedded tree structure of the code. Zed almost gets there and it's maddening to me that they don't embrace it fully. I think once I show them what the stakes of the game are they have the engineering talent to catch up. The main reason it hasn't been done is that we're still all basically writing code on paper. All of the most modern tools that people are using, they're still basically just digitizations of punchcard programming. If you dig down through all the layers of abstractions at the very bottom is line and column, that telltale hint of paper's two-dimensionality. And because line and column get baked into every integration surface, the limitations of IDEs are the limitations of paper. When you frame the task of programming as "write a huge amount of text out on paper" it's no wonder that people turn to LLMs to do it. For the integration layer using the tree as the primary means you get to stop worrying about a valid tree layer blinking into and out of existence constantly, which is conceptually what happens when someone types code syntax in left to right. They put an opening brace in, then later a closing brace. In between a valid tree representation has ceased to exist.
- gnrlst 1y ago
  I've very interested in this, and completely agree we are still trying to evolve the horse carriage without realizing we can move away from it. How can I follow up on what you're building? Would you be open to having a chat? I've found your github, but let me know how if there's a better way to contact you.
  - conartist6 1y ago
    The BABLR Discord is the spot, though I'm also happy to take emails: https://discord.gg/NfMNyYN6cX https://discord.gg/NfMNyYN6cX (and yes I'm happy to chat!)
- pierrec 1y ago
  Representing undo/redo history as a tree is quite different from representing the code structure as a tree. On the one hand I'm surprised no one seems to care that a response has nothing to do with the question... on the other hand, these AI tooling threads are always full of people talking right past each other and being very excited about it, so I guess it fits.
tgtweak 1y ago
Been using cline and their snapshot/rewind/remove context (even out-of-order) features are really shining especially with larger projects and larger features+changes becoming more commonplace with stronger LLMs. I would recommend you check it out if you've been frustrated by the other options out there - I've been very happy with it. I'm fairly sure you can't have git-like dag trees, nor do I think that would be particularly useful for AI based workflow - you'd have to delegate rebasing and merge conflict resolution to the agent itself... lots of potential for disaster there, at least for now.
mrorigo 1y ago
omg. "the entire AI panel being an editable area" is the KILLER feature for me! I have complete control, use my vim keys, switch models at will and life is awesome. What I don't like in the last update is that they removed the multi-tabs in the assistant. Previously I could have multiple conversations going and switch easily, but now I can only do one thing at a time :( Haven't tried the assistant2 much, mostly because I'm so comfy with my current setup

by ammmir 1y ago

senko 1y ago

> I got fed up with the entire AI panel being an editable area, so sometimes I ended up clobbering it. They fixed that with the new agent panel, which now works more like the other AI sidebars. I was (mildly) annoyed by that too. The new UI still has rough edges but I like the change.

freehorse 1y ago
Interesting. I actually like the editable format of the chat interface because it allows fixing small stuff on the fly (instead of having to talk about it with the model) and de-cluttering the chat after a few back and forths make it a mess (instead of having to start anew), which makes the context window smaller and less confusing to the model, esp for local ones. Also, the editable form makes more sense to me, and it feels more natural and simple to interact with an LLM assistant with it.
- ntonozzi 1y ago
  The old panel still exists, they call it a text thread.
  - dtkav 1y ago
    Yeah, but text threads cannot be used as context in the inline assist right now so there's no way to apply the code.
    - senko 1y ago
      What, that was a thing? I was copypasteing manually, which was annoying and error prone, that's why I like the new agent panel more. Oops, I guess.
      - dtkav 1y ago
        Yeah, It was great because you were in control of where and when the edits happened. So you could manage the context with great care, then go over to the editor and select specific regions and then "pull in" the changes that were discussed. I guess it was silly that I was always typing "use the new code" in every inline assist message. A hotkey to "pull new code" into a selected region would have been sweet. I don't really want to "set it and forget it" and then come back to some mega diff that is like 30% wrong. Especially right now where it keeps getting stuck and doing nothing for 30m.
    - freehorse 1y ago
      Ah that's a bummer. You can still add threads as context, but that you cannot use slash commands there, so the only way to add them or other stuff in the context is to click buttons with the mouse. It would be nice if at least slash commands were working there. edit: actually it is still possible to include text threads in there
      - dtkav 1y ago
        You can add agent threads as context, but right now adding text threads as context doesn't work.
        freehorse 1y ago
        It actually seems to work for me. I have an active text thread and it was added automatically to my inline prompt in the file. There was this box on the bottom of the inline text box. I think I had to click it the first time to include the context, but the subsequent times it was included by default.
- dtkav 1y ago
  Yes! Editing the whole buffer is a major feature because the more you keep around failed attempts and trash the dumber the model gets (and more expensive). If you're working on stuff like marketing websites that are well represented in the model dataset then things will just fly, but if you're building something that is more niche it can be super important to tune the context -- in some cases this is the differentiating feature between being able to use AI assistance at all (otherwise the failure rate just goes to 100%).
- koito17 1y ago
  > I actually like the editable format of the chat interface because it allows fixing small stuff on the fly Fully agreed. This was the killer feature of Zed (and locally-hosted LLMs). Delete all tokens after the first mistake spotted in generated code. Then correct the mistake and re-run the model. This greatly improved code generation in my experience. I am not sure if cloud-based LLMs even allow modifying assistant output (I would assume not since it becomes a trivial way to bypass safety mechanisms).
  - senko 1y ago
    > I am not sure if cloud-based LLMs even allow modifying assistant output. In general they do. For each request, you include the complete context as JSON, including previous assistant output. You can change that as you wish.
  - freehorse 1y ago
    The only issue I would imagine is not being able to use prompt caching, which can increase the cost of API calls, but I am not sure if prompt caching is used in general in such a context in the first place. Otherwise you just send the "history" in a json file, there is nothing mystical about llm chats really. If you use an API you can just send to autocomplete whatever you want.
cedws 1y ago
I’m on the opposite end, I hate the new panel. It’s less space efficient, slash commands are gone, and I can’t figure out how to clear the chat.

cies 1y ago

All vims and emacses can have undo-tree (as a plugin iirc). Many devs use it. Vote/read-up here for the feature on Zed: https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/issues/17455 https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/issues/17455 And here on VSCode: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/20889 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/20889

conartist6 1y ago

Worry not, for it is being built. You will not catch me using the words "agentic IDE" to describe what I'm doing because its primary purpose isn't to be used by AI any more than the primary purpose of a car is to drive itself. But yes, what I am doing is creating an IDE where the primary integration surface for humans, scripts, and AIs is not the 2D text buffer, but the embedded tree structure of the code. Zed almost gets there and it's maddening to me that they don't embrace it fully. I think once I show them what the stakes of the game are they have the engineering talent to catch up. The main reason it hasn't been done is that we're still all basically writing code on paper. All of the most modern tools that people are using, they're still basically just digitizations of punchcard programming. If you dig down through all the layers of abstractions at the very bottom is line and column, that telltale hint of paper's two-dimensionality. And because line and column get baked into every integration surface, the limitations of IDEs are the limitations of paper. When you frame the task of programming as "write a huge amount of text out on paper" it's no wonder that people turn to LLMs to do it. For the integration layer using the tree as the primary means you get to stop worrying about a valid tree layer blinking into and out of existence constantly, which is conceptually what happens when someone types code syntax in left to right. They put an opening brace in, then later a closing brace. In between a valid tree representation has ceased to exist.

gnrlst 1y ago
I've very interested in this, and completely agree we are still trying to evolve the horse carriage without realizing we can move away from it. How can I follow up on what you're building? Would you be open to having a chat? I've found your github, but let me know how if there's a better way to contact you.
- conartist6 1y ago
  The BABLR Discord is the spot, though I'm also happy to take emails: https://discord.gg/NfMNyYN6cX https://discord.gg/NfMNyYN6cX (and yes I'm happy to chat!)
pierrec 1y ago
Representing undo/redo history as a tree is quite different from representing the code structure as a tree. On the one hand I'm surprised no one seems to care that a response has nothing to do with the question... on the other hand, these AI tooling threads are always full of people talking right past each other and being very excited about it, so I guess it fits.

tgtweak 1y ago

Been using cline and their snapshot/rewind/remove context (even out-of-order) features are really shining especially with larger projects and larger features+changes becoming more commonplace with stronger LLMs. I would recommend you check it out if you've been frustrated by the other options out there - I've been very happy with it. I'm fairly sure you can't have git-like dag trees, nor do I think that would be particularly useful for AI based workflow - you'd have to delegate rebasing and merge conflict resolution to the agent itself... lots of potential for disaster there, at least for now.

mrorigo 1y ago

omg. "the entire AI panel being an editable area" is the KILLER feature for me! I have complete control, use my vim keys, switch models at will and life is awesome. What I don't like in the last update is that they removed the multi-tabs in the assistant. Previously I could have multiple conversations going and switch easily, but now I can only do one thing at a time :( Haven't tried the assistant2 much, mostly because I'm so comfy with my current setup